Help please......

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Julie2260, Dec 29, 2006.

  1. Julie2260

    Julie2260 Active Member

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    Does anyone have a homemade recipe for revive???? My saanen nubian x looks like she is coming down with ketosis. She would not eat this morning and she normally eats like a pig. I have given her 30cc of magic and did manage to get her outside for a short walk this morning. She is due January 14th and she is HUGE!! She had tripletts last year, but I'm afraid she has more in her this year. I thought I had seen a recipe for revive on here before, but I can't find it now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Julie
     
  2. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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  3. Julie2260

    Julie2260 Active Member

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    Thanks susanne. The article is informative. Too bad we don't have a decent vet around here. I guess I'm going to have to call the vet even tho I don't have much faith in him.
     
  4. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    julie what are you feeding your doe and what makes you think she is coming down with ketosis?
    you can give her propylene glycol at a rate of 60ml two or three times per day.
    i also would give her vit b complex which should stimulate her appetite.
     
  5. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Julie did you know that ketosis in goats is rare? It is actually the end of a horrific feeding managment problem in which the goat has no calcium to utilize. After several days in hypocalcemia, while they are bing treated for ketosis with drowining amounts of propolyne glycol (ore the sugar in majic (which is not majic at all but a way to just prolong the metobolic disease in your goat not cure it)) then when she is down, likely her kids dead, then and only then will a vet try calcium.

    You can get CMPK oral drench (not the gel)...and the site that S gave you is always down read all the Sue Rieth articles at dairygoatinfo.com with live people to help you. There are also Wallmart substitues for you to use until you can get the oral CMPK and Propolyn Glycol from a vet catalog or supply house and injectable from your vet. This should be part of everyones med chest if you breed goats.

    Vicki

    Get her through this with the hypocalcemia articles and then let us help you fix your feeding management so metobolic disease simply isn't a problem in your herd again. Vicki
     
  6. Jillis

    Jillis Well-Known Member

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    I can get CMPK right at my local Agway. Probably because we are in dairy country up here. If you live in an area where there are lots of dairys, try your local farm supply store.
     
  7. Misty

    Misty Misty Gonzales

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    1 bottle 50% dextrose
    20cc B Complex
    5cc B12
    2cc of 500mg/ml Thiamin
    Mix in a jar, store in a dark place. Give 30-40cc mixed with calf pac.
     
  8. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    although ketosis is rare in goats it happends. implying she has bad management is not very nice either.
    DG+ is up and running and will not go down again. i would not send somebody there if it is not working.
     
  9. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    i think something like this is what julia was asking for :)
    have you used this for your goats and if so at what stage or symptoms? what was your result?
     
  10. Julie2260

    Julie2260 Active Member

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    Thank you everyone for your input. I had the vet out today and he said it is a classic case of pregnancy toxemia. He gave her glucose and vitamin B intravenously. As I said before, she is huge with kids-vet thinks quads. She has eaten (inhales!) her grain until this morning. I feed her about a half a pound of grain(mixture of corn, oats cottonseed, calf concentrate, molasses) a day with a couple hand fulls of calf manna, and she gets free choice grass/ alfalfa hay. I told the vet what I fed her, and he said that was fine. If my management is wrong, please tell me what I should be doing different. Also, I have propolene glycol on hand, however, the vet said not to give it more than two times, as anymore than that will put a hole in her rumen. I'm at a loss, as I sit here typing this, I can hear her on my baby monitor moaning and groaning. She is in misery and I just hate it. She is due January 14th, but I don't know if she'll make it. Julie
     
  11. Sher

    Sher Well-Known Member

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    Take heart Julie..and hang in there. The moaning and groaning is all a part of it..and does not neccessarily mean she is in pain. My triplet girls all moan and groan in unison while heavy with kids.

    I am not a big fan of feeding girls grain. But my girls get big on alfalfa..lol. I don't want huge babies trying to come out..especially on the multiples.

    I have never used the stuff you are..but I am sure someone will help you out on that. I just wanted you to ease up on the worry..I know its hard.

    This year two of my girls got really slow..they would always get up and eat...but it was a real effort..they were just so big. Turns out they both had triplets .. so there was a good reason to be slow and big and moaning and groaning.

    I wish you much luck. And I hope she has easy births. Please keep us updated..and I hope you can enjoy this..
     
  12. Misty

    Misty Misty Gonzales

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    I don't have dairy goats either, but, I don't feed my bred does much in the way of grain. I am feeding about 12# of a 17% pellet to 17 head of does and one buck. They get lots of alfalfa.
    I don't use prop glycol on my does and I will post the reason why. It is from Coni Ross in Blanco. "Goats respond
    better to Dextrose, or Revive, and magic.
    Propylene glycol is the base for injectable Ivomec.
    I do not like or recommend any product for goats with Propylene glycol
    in it. Use real sugar products instead. You can make a liter of Revive
    for about $5. if you buy the ingredients by the case. It is just less
    expensive, and more effective.
    Some of you have heard this before, but I have a very good example of
    the difference in Revive vs Propylene glycol.
    Several years ago, I had a yearling doe with a set of quads in her. She
    started staining her tail, and loosing weight about 6 weeks prior to
    her due date. I gave her Revive, and Calf Pac, and kept her eating. I
    let her go to the pasture, but I got her up once a day, and gave her 2
    scoops of calf pac, 200cc Revive. I increased her feed, until she was
    eating a pound of corn, 5 lbs of sweet feed , and free choice alfalfa.
    She was doing very well. I had to go to the Star of Texas for 3 days,
    so took her to the vet during that 3 day time. When I went to pick her
    up, he told me she was comatose, and would die. I was shocked, to see
    her go down hill so fast. I had taken all of her feed to the vet. He
    told me that he had been giving her half a gallon twice a day of Keto
    Drench . Keto drench is a propylene glycol product for cattle with the
    similar vitamins as Revive. She quit eating, and just cratered over
    night. I got a 500 ml bottle of 50% Dextrose out of my truck, and tubed
    her with it straight, then loaded her up, and took her to the ranch.
    I gave her 200cc/hour of revive per feeding tube four times, the went
    to every other hour. I put 3 scoops of calf pac in her Revive mixed
    50:50 with water. After six hours, she was awake, and up on her
    brisket, nibbling alfalfa, and corn. By dark, I gave her 10 oz of
    Magic. The next morning, she was standing at the gate waiting for me.
    She carried her quads to term.
    The object is to get them eating, and keep them eating. Provide enough
    carbohydrate that they do not use their own fat and muscle for energy,
    to make glucose to keep the pregnancy alive."
    I give revive in times of stress and sickness. When I take wethers to sales, travel to shows etc. The goats all get revive. It keeps the appetite up and they are feeling good.
    For milk fever or Hypocalcemia: you do need the calcium on hand. The goats will look like they are walking on egg shells and have coronet band swelling. Give 300cc of revive, mixed iwth cal-dex and calf pac and increase the feed a little. Drench them with it of course.
     
  13. copperpennykids

    copperpennykids Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Julie,

    You really do want to get some oral Calcium. We prefer MFO as it doesn't seem to quite such an irritant.

    We have read and re-read Sue Rieth's article on hypocalcemia and not only did it resonate with us (make lots of sense :) ) we have tried to keep the calcium in front of our does, Boer or Dairy, especially the last 2 months of pregnancy.

    So far, no pregnancy hypocalcemia, and no toxemia. And I have does that AVG 12-16 lbs/day for milk, with one milking 22 lbs/day for 1 week after triplets. (yikes!)

    Easiest way to keep the calcium up is to feed green leafy alfalfa. If you can't get the good stuff where you are, then alfalfa pellets will fill the bill.

    If you are feeding grain, then straight alfalfa. You are trying to keep your calcium/phosphorus levels at 2:1.

    We never feed grass hay when feeding grain, as it will skew your ratios (too much phosphorus).

    I don't want to dismiss your vet, but I have never heard of something putting a hole in the goats' rumen. !!! You can get their rumen off and start a whole host of other problems (giving your goat some probios may be a good idea while she is under stress)
    if you are not careful, but a hole ?!

    I would really listen to the folks who have successfully raised goats for years and have healthy productive herds for advice. Goats are the step children in the livestock world so not much tiem or attention given to them but pharmaceuticals or in vet school. Most vets don't know that when giving meds to goats they require the meds at more frequent intervals and higher dosages due to their fast metabolisms, for example.

    Please, treat your goat the way that Sue Reith suggests in her article on hypocalcemia.

    Camille O'Connor
    Copper Penny Boers
    Copper Penny Pyrenees
    Whey-to-Go Saanens
     
  14. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Buckshotboers, you feed little grain and more alfalfa, she does the opposite. The revive has no calcium in it, B12 and Thiamin given orally is of little value, so in essense it is nothing but dextrose, sugar. it certainly wouldn't even cure ketosis if this is what is wrong. Propolyne glycol is wonderful stuff, instant energy without the damage sugar or dextrose does to the kidneys and insulin levels. Revive and majic are also not bolstering magnesium or potassium levels.

    If it was pregnancy toxemia, which is one of those catchalls for metobolic disease in goats, than treat her thoroughly...injectable CMPK, Propolyne Glycol orally, B vitamins injected, this would support her thoroughly.

    Connie's story has been talked about before, the free choice alfalfa was what pulled this doe around, not sugar.

    Susanne I think she gets it that it's managment when your goat is down, we are the ones who feed our goats. Fixing the calcium to phosphrous problem in her goats diet will keep her animals from becoming sick from this point forward. But thanks for point that out. Vicki
     
  15. fishhead

    fishhead Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why isn't thiamine given orally just as effective as an injection other than taking longer to work?

    Is it destroyed in the rumen?
     
  16. Julie2260

    Julie2260 Active Member

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    Just an update to let you know....my doe was waiting at the fence for me this morning waiting to be fed. Whew!! I have backed off her grain, and giveing her straight alfalfa. No one around here has cmpk, so I went to Walmart and got all the pills to make it. Have given her that this afternoon, and she is still eating hay. Since she is eating now, should I still give the cmpk once a day till she kids? I sure don't want to overdose her. Thanks, everybody.
     
  17. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Yes you do want to continue to support her until she kids. There isn't overdosing of products that are natural like this...naturally found in the goat, and needed during pregnancy. You will need to watch her after she kids also, with not having enough calcium reserves she can then go into milkfever...another subject to read up on :)

    Get your meds from catalogs like jeffers, it's simply way to expensive to purchase things for the farm from local stores. Here CMPK injectable is a vet script, although others can get it locally. WE are not talking about CMPK oral liquid...although once over the crisis it is fine to use the oral when you are just doing prevention.

    Once a goat is ruminanting giving things orally simply doesn't work as fast as giving it subq or IM or IV...with obviously IV the best. We give wormer orally to grown goats with rumens to slow down the time the wormer is in the system, certainly not what you want to do when you have a goat in crisis.

    Learning to do subq shots is soo much eaiser than giving anything orally to a goat. I would rather give subq anything rather than oral!

    When you are taking about long term subq shots like this, start on one side really low by the point of elbow...at the bottom rib, then move to the next side, the 3rd day you are back on the 1st side, so now go up about 3 inches, this way you are not poking the same place all the time, also spend some time massaging the meds under the skin so they disperse. And clean the skin always before injections. Vicki