[moonspinner]

This morning I went out to see my 3 yr old mini doe collapsed on her rear. She can stand a bit but as soon as she tries to walk, the rear legs cannot support her. Can't figure an injury - though I can't be sure. Thinking something metabolic. Polio maybe? She's eating, pooping fine, alert. No moldy hay or excess corn/grain she could have gotten into. I'm waiting for the vet but he might not be out til later today. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[susanne]

my guess would be meningal worm.
do google search for treatment and discuss it with your vet.

 

[fishhead]

I would call the vet again and ask him/her to bring out some B1 shots and Ivomec.

 

[Minelson]

There is a ton of info in this recent thread that you might want to read...
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=281012
I hope she's ok!

 

[moonspinner]

Every case I've known of with deerworm is a slowly progressing disease. This came on suddenly. And wouldn't you know I just got some goat supplies and I forgot to get the fortified B. All I have is regular B complex. Would people B1 tabs work? Also, can't imagine how she would have picked up men. worm as deer are not in the nearby vicinity.

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

No you can't treat anything in adult ruminants adequately with oral meds. There really is no reason to purchase B complex anymore if you have goats, alot like keeping AD&E, safeguard, nutra drench or vinegar around (unless you use it to keep algea out of your water during the summers). Fluff and pet type things simply are busy work and won't impact a ruminant.

If you look up the various metobolic disease that could cause the sypmtoms you have, and shotgun treat for the major 3. A large dose of injected ivermectin for menegial worm. A large oral dose of pennicilin and given subq also for polio and high levels of B vitmains injected subq every 4 hours, you pretty much have covered all bases. Injury which can be a simple as a dislodged obamossaus....is she chewing cud? Does make B1 in a healthy rumen, if her rumen is not functioning than she will have b1 defficiency Poliomilitisenchpalitis.....menengial worm name is actualy protozoal militis....soo both being disease of the brain banmine and or Dexamethazone are needed for the swelling of each. Along with listerosis, which is more herd wide, it's rare to have one goat come down with listerosis.

Tetanus...is she up to date on her tetanus vaccine? Had a wound 21 days ago?

What color are the membranes of her eyes, we have the anemia chart (famacha) up on goatkeeping 101 (dairygoatinfo.com), which number is she? What's her temp? Vicki

 

[moonspinner]

Okay, vet was just here. He says it's possible she could have some trauma (though no pain on examination), but says likely culprit is deerworm. She has good color, normal temp, eating, eliminating fine. This morning I have not checked on cud chewing, but I suspect she is. This vet is a ruminent specialist and I was surprised he did not prescribe high doses of Ivermec but just the regular dose. He gave Dexamine, a thiamine shot and said I should give her another tomorrow plus a Bose shot and antibiotic. He said Biomycin would be fine, which again surprised me because I would think as Vicki said, Pen would be the choice there. But he apparently doesn't think high ivermec doses do any good. Also unfortunately this doe is likely 2-3 weeks pregnant. So do you think I should continue the thiamine beyond tomorrow and should I give her continued Ivermec shots? Or wait to see if there is any improvement in the short term? Thanks again!

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

There is no such thing as improvement in the short term if it is menengial worm. If it's menegial worm the only thing the antibiotic is for is to keep pnemonia at bay with the cool weather (here the humdity) the pennicillin I wrote about is to treat listerosis. Has the vet treated sucessfully menengial worm? The high dose of Ivermectin I would give right now, it is the only wormer that will cross the blood brain barrier to kill the larve living in the spinal cord that is cuasing the paralysis. If you can treat her before she goes down her outcome in the end will be much better.

But if after treating her with the thiamin which you should give every 4 hours, by the 3rd shot if she is better you are not dealing with menengial worm but polio.

If she doesn't get better by her third shot of thiamin, and you have continued with the biomycin, dex etc...you will have to get more agressive with the dex and add banamine also to pull her through this. Dexamethazone if that is what he gave, has likely already slipped the very early pregnancy so treatment should continue then deal with the pregnancy later, if he gave her banamine and not Dex, I would get Dex....perhaps blood test her to see if she is indeed still bred in 2 more weeks.

I want stuff like this treated agresively in my herd so that I get 100% mobility back, having a doe weak in her rear end that can't hold up bucks, does't have the muscle tone next year to push out kids, is worthless for me, I would put them down rather than have a dibilitated goat.

It just doesn't seem likely it is MW since you don't have white tail deer on your place. Keep up the thiamin shots, I bet she turns around by tommorrow morning. Vicki

 

[moonspinner]

He did give Dex and why would he only prescribe 1 cc thiamine per day? (this is a small mini doe) And why would he only prescribe the normal dose (1cc ivermec) for one day? I asked him about more and he said the one dose will kill off the parasite. So I don't know whether to go by his instructions or to treat more aggressively as you say. I don't care if the doe aborts; I just want the best regimen to try and get her well, if that's possible. Also, is there any difference between deerworm that manifests slowly over time against that which comes on suddenly?
I might add the weather here has been extremely wet since spring and I had unsual bouts of summer cocci and lice, so it would seem ideal conditions for men. worm. No whitetail deer on the property but there are some in my back woods.
Again, I so very much appreciate the help and insight. Right now I'm not optomisitic.

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

There is the mega dose of b vitmains, a normal dose of fortified B complex and the small dose of Thiamin/B1 vet script, all due to the amount of B1 in the bootle. Double check your dosage and even treatments on goatkeeping 101 at dairygoatinfo.com we have the old saanendoah med chart up there, but also Sue Reiths articles, pretty sure we have a polio one up also.

If he hasn't sucessfully treated menengial worm than how would he know what dose to use. My vet had treated protozoal militis in a horse and knew it was a large dose to kill the mature adult, the larve don't need to be killed they migrate out of the goat and cause no further problems.

We have hashed out the menengial thread several times on here. Do keep up with the thiamin injections. Your property or your hay has to have direct contact with white tail deer, it isn't something that could have came onto your property any other way. Vicki

 

[jordan]

Why does it seem that all of a sudden, everyone seems to be diagnosing MW for what seems to me to be pretty clear symptons of polio or lysterosis? Is MW becoming that common even in the colder states? We have had numerous freezes here already so worms are not normally much of a problem at this time of year.
If it were me, I'd stick with the B regimen to treat the doe.

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Exactly Jordan. Vicki

 

[Mrs. Jo]

Jordan, It's called "email list disease." Similar to when the first year medical students think they have every disease in their text book. Lately, there has been a lot of talk of deer worm.

Anyway, I'd do as Vicki suggested and treat for the big three. After some time goes by, it might become apparent what it actually is. Many problems share symptoms.

 

[fishhead]

If the treatment for a serious disease carries a small risk and the cause is unknown it makes sense (to me) to cover all the bases.

 

[moonspinner]

The reason the vet didn't think polio was due to absence of other symptoms. I'd much rather this be thiamine-treatable than men. worm. I'm still wondering about just giving her the one ivermectin dose if it does happen to be deer worm. This vet deals with a lot of goats, sheep and llamas and is in his 50s so I have to believe he's treated deer worm at some point. He gave me dexy and thiamine shots for 2 more days.

 

[susanne]

none of us here are vets and i think we should leave diagnosis and treatment to the vet

i would not have thought about listeriosis or polio as your doe is still eating/drinking, no fever and obviously no pain like head pressing or stargazing. goats with listeriosis and/or polio are very sick.

i know a nubian breeder in NY that is loosing animals to meningal worms every year. i saw one wobbly goat at her place after recovering. this doe never got her strength back in her rear legs.

i hope your doe will recover completely for you.

 

[powderhooves]

none of us here are vets and i think we should leave diagnosis and treatment to the vet

i would not have thought about listeriosis or polio as your doe is still eating/drinking, no fever and obviously no pain like head pressing or stargazing. goats with listeriosis and/or polio are very sick.

i know a nubian breeder in NY that is loosing animals to meningal worms every year. i saw one wobbly goat at her place after recovering. this doe never got her strength back in her rear legs.

i hope your doe will recover completely for you.

I have to tell you I find the people here really knowledgeable and am so grateful that they take the time to try and help through the wisdom of their experiences. Twice I've taken goats to the vet at 7a.m. and they were still in the trailer at 3p.m. waiting. It's so nice to come to this forum and converse with people who care so much about goats. So...this Thanksgiving...I'm sending up my thanks for the blessings all of you pass on daily by keeping in touch with this forum.

 

[betsy h.]

One thing no one mentions- with Meningial worm, you will see intense itching as well and leaning against a wall behavior. This is supposed occur before the inabilty to stand.

My bet is on a trauma of some sort- think horses not zebras.....just watch for facial paralisis or other neuro-symptoms, Tetanus and Listeria tend to look the same for the first couple of days when syptoms begin to occur.

 

[moonspinner]

Some improvement this morning. She is moving around more and standing for longer periods and wanting to be with her buddies. But the most encouraging is when she collapsed, it took her a minute or so but she was able to get up on her own. She could not do this yesterday. I have a question. Could the improvement be solely due to the steriod's affect, in other words masking the injury/disease? I just don't want to get my hopes up prematurely that when she goes off the meds she will slide back downhill.

 

[susanne]

you only see the itching when or if the larvae migrates under the skin. they don't do that always. that is why it is so hard to diagnose.
i had doe this summer that was dragging her hind legs, almost not visible and you had to know what to look for. no other signs, temp normal, eating and drinking normal.