Has Anyone Ever Had This Done ???

Discussion in 'Goats' started by UdderlySaanens, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. UdderlySaanens

    UdderlySaanens Member

    Messages:
    20
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    A friend of mine has a vet wanting to do something to a doe that we don't feel right about. He says it will be fine but hasn't been done before. The doe has Cancer on her udder and we took her to get a Mastectomy done but the vet says because of her age (7 years old) she may not survive the surgery. So, he wants to put a Latex band (like they use for castrating bucks) on her bag so it will fall off. I told my friend that I didn't like the sound of that because I feel that the udder had different "lines" running to it than testicles and I personally would have took a chance on the mastectomy before I let the vet experiment on the goat. She told the vet she wanted to think about it some more. Money is not the object here either, this woman will dish out the money for the surgery to save this goat from dying of Cancer if that is the way she decides to go. But I thought I would try to find out if anyone else has had this "banding-thing" done to an udder before to give her some other opinions to help her decide.
     
  2. tduerson

    tduerson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    90
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2004
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I have never heard of this myself. I think it sounds kind of crazy. How big is her utter. Was he going to use the same band as you would to band a buckling.

    I think he is wanting to "Invent" a new way to save animals. It would be great if he does this though. Any thing to help my Goats live longer heathier and happier lives, but he sure would not use one of mine as a "Guinea Pig"

    This is just my opinion
    Tina
     

  3. AnnaS

    AnnaS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,130
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2003
    Location:
    Verndale MN
    My instinct says it's BS too. I had some problems with a local vet who was never wrong, regardless of what her ignorance did to the animal. (I've got a good vet now.)
    I'd get a second opinion from a vet who has some practice in with sheep/goats or even dairy cattle. Try here

    http://www.aasrp.org/

    The sheep and goat specialists. I'd also call up a vet school and talk to the sheep and goat instructor and find out what the recommended procedures are in a case like this.

    Good luck! I hope things work out for this goat.
     
  4. Laura Workman

    Laura Workman (formerly Laura Jensen) Supporter

    Messages:
    2,479
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    Lynnwood, Washington
    Not only no, but H--L no! I can't even imagine what that would feel like. I mean, the area of udder attachment even on my small goats is roughly six inches by 10 inches. Putting a rubber band on that, presuming you could even get it on, which is highly doubtful, would rip it right off. And if she only needs to lose half of her udder, how on earth is he going to do an accurate division? If this guy isn't comfortable doing the job in the normal way, with a scalpel, you should definitely find another vet.

    Reading over your post again, does he just want to band the cancer or the entire udder? How localized is the cancer? Even so, my feeling is that if it's small enough and localized enough to band without ripping off chunks or the entire udder, it would still be better removed with a local anesthetic and a scalpel.
     
  5. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,061
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    that is about the biggest load of bs I have heard to day, well not the biggest, but close to it. If you have a vet. teaching collage in your state ,take the doe thee. those proff.'s that teach the up and coming vet's are pretty sharp. they can tell you what to do. I know michigan state ,has a great program.
     
  6. NewlandNubians

    NewlandNubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    142
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Location:
    Virginia
    I had a doe years ago come down with gangrene mastitis real bad in one half. She was milking straight blood pretty much. I'll never forget the smell... She was so sick )-:

    My vet did a mastectomy on the farm on the affected half. She not only survived, she went on to milk out of the other half the next year after she kidded! It was funny, she looked like she had an ice cream cone hanging down back there <grin>.

    As far as age goes, I would probably still give it a try. Make SURE you have a vet that knows how much anestesia to give a goat. That seems to be the most critical thing. Even the vet school here messed that up in front of my very eyes. Thankfully they were only going to sedate the buck and they gave him too much and completely knocked him out. If they had wanted to knock him completely out, they would've probably killed him by giving him too much. My old vet even messed up before when giving anestesia before. So be careful...

    My advice to you is to find another vet who is experienced and can do the job. My old vet certainly was...
     
  7. luvrulz

    luvrulz Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    3,232
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I think this is a bunch of hooey! Find another vet!

    Just the thought of something like that makes me shudder.... I am having a mammogram tomorrow and maybe I'm just sensitive but ya know, it's not sounding humane.... The vet might think twice about something like this if it was him......or if he'd ever had a mammogram.... <grin>
     
  8. Xandras_Zoo

    Xandras_Zoo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    815
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Location:
    Richmond, BC, Canada
    I'm no goat expert, but that's a pretty definate no. Think about it. The vet wants to Elastrat this poor girl's boobs off. OOUUUUCHHHHHHH!
     
  9. Meg Z

    Meg Z winding down

    Messages:
    3,471
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2004
    Location:
    NC
    My first thought on this was "OUCH!!". Then I tried to really look at the physics of it.

    When you band a bucking, the band is tight enough to put pressure all through the entire (fairly small) amount of flesh it is supposed to restrict, cut off all blood supply, nerves, everything at once. Not a method I prefer to use, but now that I look at it this way, I might.

    Now, an udder is a big piece of tissue, with glands, nerves, great blood supply, and in this case cancerous tissue, of unknown size and involvement. To put a band on this, large enough to constrict all the tissue simultaneously, it would have to be so tight that it would, as someone said, basically rip the udder right off, in an attempt to pull all that flesh together. If it wasn't tight enough to completely constrict the well-developed blood supply, that udder is going to swell up like a (very painful) balloon, and the goat's life will be seriously risked. I just can't see that that it would be a practical thing to do. It sounds like a good torture device to me.

    Now that I've looked at the details, my reaction is no longer 'ouch'. I'm ready to get a shotgun and stand between that goat and that vet.

    Meg
     
  10. UdderlySaanens

    UdderlySaanens Member

    Messages:
    20
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    OK here goes...as far as the size of her udder, at this time it is not that big but that will change as she is pregnant. The goat does not have a "well-attached" udder so it hangs low. Yes, the vet wants to use the same kind of LATEX castrating band that he would use on bucks or bull calves and wants to band the entire bag. The entire udder is consumed with the cancer so a mastectomy would be the way to go.
    As far as good goat vets in our part of KY, we have still yet to find one. I will be going to my friends house this week and will take a picture of the goats bag to show you what it looks like so you will understand how bad it is.
    I, like yourselves, have told her this is a bad move and that I didn't like the sound (or thought) of it. I told her that in my opinion she stands a huge chance of losing her doe all together. I am printing out your replies and taking them to her so she can see what we all think. Keep the responses coming and I will post a picture soon as I can.
     
  11. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    IF a doe has an udder completly involved with cancer, which is very rare in goats, mostly seen in the south in white skinned saanens, it would have gone systemic long ago (matastisized) so put her down, taking off her udder will not contain the cancer which is likely in her organs by now.

    No vet, no matter how backwoods is going to suggest to treat an udder like this, and if this story even has a thread of truth this vet should be turned in for malpractice. If this story is true I would like his name to do just this. I am not questioning your truthfullness, but I don't think your friend is being truthful to you.

    In malignant edema/gangrenous mastitis, the blood supply to the udder is destroyed, so the udder sloughs on it's own, after turning into a leathery mass. I could see where someone would think that an udder like this would be a cancer.

    Acidomydes are a horrible bacteria, it causes massive amounts of abscess under the skin of the udder, and is very contagious.

    The problem I have here is that without lab tests nobody can look at this and say, yes it's cancer.

    There are wonderful diagrams with med lists and instructions for doing a mastectomy on a goat in the vet text Goat Medicine, it is actually a procedure we will do on a doe in a couple more years who was allowed to nurse one doeling, before I purchased her and blew her attachments and teats. When her teats, even with milking twice a day, start to touch the milkstand, probably two more lactations, she is 4, we will have her udder removed and she will be kept as a brood doe, because her daughters are lovely. Vicki
     
  12. Maranman

    Maranman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Hello,
    I am not going as far as to say your friend is not telling you the whole truth :)
    here .But I would definately get a 2nd opinion.If she is that worth saving maybe a 3rd opinion.Ever how the mastectomy is done, will they get all the cancer for sure.That is an awful lot of pain to inflict on the poor doe and it not do any good. :no: Definately another opinion.IMHO Thanks David Sullivan

    (No vet, no matter how backwoods is going to suggest to treat an udder like this, and if this story is true this vet should be turned in for malpractice. If this story is true I would like his name to do just this.Go for it.)
     
  13. UdderlySaanens

    UdderlySaanens Member

    Messages:
    20
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    It is true because I went with her to the vet to help her with the loading and unloading of the goat. I also went with her a year ago when she had a big spot cut off and biopsied. I guess the vet didn't think it would spread after taking that spot off but it has. The vet is in Glasgow, KY at the Glasgow Animal Clinic. His name is Bobby Guilfoil. Their website is www.glasgowvetclinics.com
    Like I said though ... I was there with her ... He even showed us the band he wanted to use on her.
     
  14. bethlaf

    bethlaf Homegrown Family

    Messages:
    747
    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Location:
    N.Ar
    surgical mastitis is a valid thing banding is whooey, i cant think any vet would say that, sounds like a backwoods sort of person trying to play at being a vet ....
     
  15. trnubian

    trnubian Twin-Reflection Nubians

    Messages:
    1,015
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Location:
    Indiana
    I'm sorry, WHAT! There is no way on God's green earth that I would EVER do that to a doe. I asume this doe is very special to her owner and she probably doesn't want to lose her, right? Not only do I agree with everyone else, but banding her would probably be the fastest way to kill her. Isn't that what you are trying to prevent? The band would cause bloodlose because it would literally rip her udder right off and the stress of that pain on a doe, even a young doe, would be enough to kill her. Also, if it is in the udder, and he took samples a year ago, how does he know that all the cancer is localized? I tend to agree with someone before who said, if it is cancer, then by now, it is already spread throughout the body. And did you say she wat pregnant? I thought you did. That would be one sure fire way to get her to abort. That would be a horrible way to die, trying to give birth and having that band on an udder. Please don't let her do that.

    I can't believe that any vet would suggest that. You REALLY need to find a different vet, even if you just have to take all your problems to a State Vetrinarian Universtity program.
     
  16. Croenan

    Croenan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    312
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2003
    Location:
    Stuart, VA
    Like someone said, try contacting a vet school, like the one in Wisconson...I believe it is U of W, or North Carolina State University. They will probably be able to advise you a little better. If you wants to go far enough she might even try chemo on the goat. I know that SOME animals do really well with chemo. (chemo would probably be in addition to a mastecomy)

    I certainly wouldn't do the banding either, I think I'd rather put the animal down before torturing them. (and I don't put an animal down unless there is no other alternative!)
     
  17. luvrulz

    luvrulz Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    3,232
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    My vet here in Edmonton, KY might be able to help.... It's Edmonton Vet Clinic and the phone # 270)432-2080. He will give advice over the phone and is only 20 minutes from Glasgow, ok? I have used him for our chickens, dogs, cattle et al. Dr. LeFever and a gem! He'll tell you what he thinks..... And if he wants to see the goat, maybe a $25 office call is all you're out, I'm thinking..... I have picked up scripts and stuff for individual ailments and he's extrmemly helpful.....

    Don't let that poor doe suffer!