Dh and I have long said that our culture has died.People no longer can relate each other.I see this among the young people even more so. We have lost a great deal of knowledge because we no longer talk among the generations .Instead we house them in nursing homes ,day cares and government ran schools. Separating every generation along the way.It's sad.No longer do children learn the social norms from parents and grand parents, but from institutions.As a result I dare say human life has become worth little or no value to a great deal of our youth. Children who are raise more "traditional" find themselves often being outcast among the new generation. Maybe I'm just cynical,but what I see frightens.
Has American Civilization Already Collapsed?
So I'm wrapping up my new book that arrived a little while back and struggling with some of the concepts within. (This was Joseph Tainter's "Collapse of Complex Societies".)
I purchased this book with an eye towards learning how civilizations collapse, but in reading I sort of came away with some new thoughts.
In this thread, I'll talk about the definition of "collapse". It doesn't particularly have to mean that every person in a civilization up and died or wandered off to live in a mud hut or became a bone-gnawing barbarian in the ruins of their former civilization. Collapse is instead characterized by one of the more of the following:
-A lower degree of social differentiation (i.e., an upper, middle and lower class)
-Less economic and occupational specialization
-Less centralized control
-Less behavioral control (social norms that define a civilization no longer enforced by tradition)
-Less investment in the defining characteristics of that civilization (such as Greek thought and architecture)
-Less information flow between individuals (I would say less MEANINGFUL cultural exchanges as opposed to just information. For example, Facebook does not exactly serve as a conduit for cultural change and transfer.)
-Less sharing, trading, distribution of resources
-Less overall coordination and organization between individuals and groups
Going over this list, I can see that a number of these things are happening already in the United States! I'd like to discuss these individual items and get an understanding of how others are seeing them.
I purchased this book with an eye towards learning how civilizations collapse, but in reading I sort of came away with some new thoughts.
In this thread, I'll talk about the definition of "collapse". It doesn't particularly have to mean that every person in a civilization up and died or wandered off to live in a mud hut or became a bone-gnawing barbarian in the ruins of their former civilization. Collapse is instead characterized by one of the more of the following:
-A lower degree of social differentiation (i.e., an upper, middle and lower class)
-Less economic and occupational specialization
-Less centralized control
-Less behavioral control (social norms that define a civilization no longer enforced by tradition)
-Less investment in the defining characteristics of that civilization (such as Greek thought and architecture)
-Less information flow between individuals (I would say less MEANINGFUL cultural exchanges as opposed to just information. For example, Facebook does not exactly serve as a conduit for cultural change and transfer.)
-Less sharing, trading, distribution of resources
-Less overall coordination and organization between individuals and groups
Going over this list, I can see that a number of these things are happening already in the United States! I'd like to discuss these individual items and get an understanding of how others are seeing them.
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Angie, if it's inappropriate for me to be posting the following quote from a different website, please delete my post.
Ernie, last night I was reading something that another person had posted in another website. The discussion was about many of these same things that you're talking about and people were making comparisons between America and various countries in Europe. You are asking for other people's perceptions so I'm posting what that one other (well travelled) person said and that many others agreed with - this seemed to be the general consensus of folks participating in the discussion.I'd like to discuss these individual items and get an understanding of how others are seeing them.
........ However, the outlook for the country (USA) going forward has deteriorated significantly in the past several years.
If the US is no longer a good environment for small business and investment, what is it worth? The convenience of the technological life and good shopping?
Stress, still inadequate housing despite the real estate boom, inefficient use of space and energy, the unsustainability of suburban life, a cultural wasteland, poor urban planning and transport, paying insurance for everything, worrying about poor quality public education for children, violent crime, high price of private schools, being sued, corrupt lawyers, overpriced but mediocre quality healthcare, genetically modified food, corrupt bankers and politicians, increasing social and political instability, possibly being taxed to death starting possibly starting as early as next year?
And no worthwhile cultural life to offset those things?
Generally speaking, the world is drifting into a mediocre, industrialized, corporate fascist malaise, masked, perhaps ironically, by some neo-pseudo-socialist ideology.
There is no escape.
Might as well live, looking backwards, in a place with time-tested cultural and spiritual traditions. The US, formerly an exceptional and forward-looking society, ain't that place.
Europe offers a little better in that respect, especially on the cultural side, use of space, architecture, urban planning, public transport, fresher food, especially down south, the less stressful simplicity of a single-payer, less expensive healthcare system offering about the same quality.
And while spiritually Europe has been brain dead, you can still find a niche.
I can't argue with the importance of a cultural life. When I look at American culture, I see it personified as "freedom loving individualist achievers". However that seems to be coming to an end. What will we have left? Bad Hollywood movies, NASCAR, and the NFL? I don't think that's enough to string together a culture.
I've always turned up my nose at the idea of living in Europe, though I frequently have the opportunity to consider it. (Just a couple of weeks ago I had a job offer in New Zealand that I seriously considered.) I'd always said, "Bleh. They have socialized medicine and high taxation." However that's becoming less of a concern.
I've always turned up my nose at the idea of living in Europe, though I frequently have the opportunity to consider it. (Just a couple of weeks ago I had a job offer in New Zealand that I seriously considered.) I'd always said, "Bleh. They have socialized medicine and high taxation." However that's becoming less of a concern.
Yes, it has. There is nothing more than a shell left of what was a great country. Its like the ghost towns in the old west where they would put up ornate facades over shacks to make them look like fancy buildings. When you walk around your realize they are nothing but shacks made to look nice. I think that many people have walked around the buildings in the us and found shacks. Some of them got angry, some of them got sad, some of them walked back around the form to admire the facades, others heard about the shacks behind the facades and refuse to go around to take a look for them selves, and still other won't believe that there those pretty buildings they admire are really just shacks.
Well Ernie, you DO live in Illinois after all. Maybe you need to take a road trip west and spend some time in some wide open space. I'm serious. There is so much place out here that is so NOT the Californication of America, or the decay of white trash twinkieville. Personally I think America still has a good underbelly(and it ain't on TEEVEE). Any culture/civ gets old and dies, it's the way of nature itself, and it's natural that cycle be reflected in the ways of men. The question is what will replace it. Will the US split up and Ecotopia get born(maybe you should read that book next, ha). I'm kinda thinking the states will go that way, splitting up into regions and becoming more self contained(libertarian? ha). Of course some regions are better equipped than others for this(resources, population density, how many are on welfare) and that will cause strife in itself.
Just rambling. Thankful to look out my window to the west and know there's nothing between me and the beach but a whole bunch of trees
. (another thought, sometimes I really wonder where all us homesteader types are really living, it shouldn't be a shock to me that more than I think are urban I guess).
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE my new motorcycle tires just came! yay UPS man! BYE
Just rambling. Thankful to look out my window to the west and know there's nothing between me and the beach but a whole bunch of trees
. (another thought, sometimes I really wonder where all us homesteader types are really living, it shouldn't be a shock to me that more than I think are urban I guess).EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE my new motorcycle tires just came! yay UPS man! BYE
What you're saying, in essence, is that it's all just false advertising and always has been, all the way back to the days of the old west. That it never was a great country at any time, that it's always just been a facade. Perhaps there is some truth in that. Perhaps America is just now beginning to realize that. Perhaps now is the time for America to throw away the facade and start all over again to rebuild what still could be a great country in fact. :shrug:Yes, it has. There is nothing more than a shell left of what was a great country. Its like the ghost towns in the old west where they would put up ornate facades over shacks to make them look like fancy buildings. When you walk around your realize they are nothing but shacks made to look nice. I think that many people have walked around the buildings in the us and found shacks. Some of them got angry, some of them got sad, some of them walked back around the form to admire the facades, others heard about the shacks behind the facades and refuse to go around to take a look for them selves, and still other won't believe that there those pretty buildings they admire are really just shacks.
.
What a depressing thread. I suppose it's because it is true...just makes it more "real" when others feel the same as I do about this topic. I compare "losing America" to losing a grandparent or parent....a major force in my life that has helped form my beliefs, morals, and ideals. America owns a piece of my heart and soul. Unfortunately, "my" America is becoming less and less of a belief system and more and more of just a "place".
"Stand beside her, and guide her, through the night with a light from above...God Bless America, my home sweet home!!!"
"Stand beside her, and guide her, through the night with a light from above...God Bless America, my home sweet home!!!"
(I know I'm not who you're talking to, but that hasn't stopped me before haha)What you're saying, in essence, is that it's all just false advertising and always has been, all the way back to the days of the old west. That it never was a great country at any time, that it's always just been a facade. Perhaps there is some truth in that. Perhaps America is just now beginning to realize that. Perhaps now is the time for America to throw away the facade and start all over again to rebuild what still could be a great country in fact. :shrug:
.
I say(and I'm sure you KNOW this in your corner of Canada as well), there are plenty of stand up good people around. The garbage is finally being taken out. kinda. or at least it's starting to stink.
Anyways, there is false advertising, and there is putting lipstick on a pig. At least if you have a pig you can BBQ.
good topic.
it does fit that definition in many ways.
in a sociology 101 class we were introduced to the idea of "anomy," a sense of alienation from ones culture/ community/ tribe. it's pervasive in america and the root cause of many physical, mental, psychic and religious illnesses and perversions.
it occurred right along with the loss of community and the rise of elecronic media.
remember marshall mccluan?? "the medium is the massage?" he wrote of the world becoming one small village. problem is, we have lost our identity as members of a tribe. most of us aren't even near our families. it's considered the norm for children to leave and maybe see their families once a year at the holidays with duty phone calls in between. our lives are consumed by media and our beliefs are almost entirely shaped by televised images, instead of our community mores.
looking at the natural world i think humans were designed to live in small groups of relatives. our entire culture is sick because we do not.
it does fit that definition in many ways.
in a sociology 101 class we were introduced to the idea of "anomy," a sense of alienation from ones culture/ community/ tribe. it's pervasive in america and the root cause of many physical, mental, psychic and religious illnesses and perversions.
it occurred right along with the loss of community and the rise of elecronic media.
remember marshall mccluan?? "the medium is the massage?" he wrote of the world becoming one small village. problem is, we have lost our identity as members of a tribe. most of us aren't even near our families. it's considered the norm for children to leave and maybe see their families once a year at the holidays with duty phone calls in between. our lives are consumed by media and our beliefs are almost entirely shaped by televised images, instead of our community mores.
looking at the natural world i think humans were designed to live in small groups of relatives. our entire culture is sick because we do not.
i'm curious- what decade would you consider to be the time when america was still a great country? that's probably a whole other thread.Yes, it has. There is nothing more than a shell left of what was a great country. Its like the ghost towns in the old west where they would put up ornate facades over shacks to make them look like fancy buildings. When you walk around your realize they are nothing but shacks made to look nice. I think that many people have walked around the buildings in the us and found shacks. Some of them got angry, some of them got sad, some of them walked back around the form to admire the facades, others heard about the shacks behind the facades and refuse to go around to take a look for them selves, and still other won't believe that there those pretty buildings they admire are really just shacks.
We are following the 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" ala Gibbon. Read it and you will see the future of the USA.
Interesting. On this thought, you and I are in complete agreement.looking at the natural world i think humans were designed to live in small groups of relatives. our entire culture is sick because we do not.
Absolutely. And I should point out here, at least for this topic anyway, that I consider the topic to be about all of North American society in many regards. Not just about USA. Our 2 countries' and our 2 societies are so closely tied together, so inter-connected in so many ways - moreso than any other countries anywhere else. Though we still both have a lot to learn from each other in our differences too.(I know I'm not who you're talking to, but that hasn't stopped me before haha)
I say(and I'm sure you KNOW this in your corner of Canada as well), there are plenty of stand up good people around. ......
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This is a very good point. EVERY major civilization has eventually failed. It is just the way the world turns. Babylon, Aztec, Myan, Roman, British, etc.... They all eventually collapsed or were replaced. Ours will as well. It does not mean we are in for 1000 years of darkness, rather, we need to figure out what we want to become or what we want to cling to.We are following the 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" ala Gibbon. Read it and you will see the future of the USA.
Personally, I love the principles of what this country was founded upon. I love the constitution and will gladly lay down my life to protect this freedom. We are no doubt in an interesting time for our young country. Although, she has faced other challenges in her infancy and she came through shining.
When I was in college, one of the texts was Mores, Customs, and Laws. It was a study of how 1st a society would decide what was right and wrong and that would be a more (moral). After may years, if the more proved to be beneficial it would move into the custom category. It was just the way society behaved. Some customs were so important that the society encoded them as laws.
What I think is happening is that our mores and customs are being challenged and the law is often being used to negate them. It is important a country have a culture built on mores and customs which don't have to be enshrined in law. It is just the way our society has decided to live on a day to day basis. In the US, this is very much built on the Judeo-Christian ethic. I just read an article today about
I also see atheists attacking prayers and any type of religious display in a government or pseudo-government facility as unconstitutional. We need a Supreme Court that will support religious freedom as intended by the founders - freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
I see illegal immigrants in the millions come across our southern border. Our country cannot absorb that many people and integrate them into our society as fast as they are coming. Most Americans support immigration - legal immigration. It is important that new immigrants receive the support they need to assimilate and become Americans. It is not good to have millions of undocumented Mexicans in the country who have no intention of learning the language, customs, and becoming Americans.
I think in these 2 areas, we are in great danger of not being able to get back in control:
What I think is happening is that our mores and customs are being challenged and the law is often being used to negate them. It is important a country have a culture built on mores and customs which don't have to be enshrined in law. It is just the way our society has decided to live on a day to day basis. In the US, this is very much built on the Judeo-Christian ethic. I just read an article today about
The student spearheading the demand to remove "in the year of our Lord" is Moslem. This is something I see on a daily basis - Moslems immigrating to the US and then attacking our mores and customs using the law. Is the only answer to make every more and custom a law?Students at a Texas college are demanding that their diplomas not be dated "in the year of Our Lord," prompting school officials to consider removing that phrase while leaving what others consider another obvious reference to Christendom â the school's name, Trinity University. more
I also see atheists attacking prayers and any type of religious display in a government or pseudo-government facility as unconstitutional. We need a Supreme Court that will support religious freedom as intended by the founders - freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
I see illegal immigrants in the millions come across our southern border. Our country cannot absorb that many people and integrate them into our society as fast as they are coming. Most Americans support immigration - legal immigration. It is important that new immigrants receive the support they need to assimilate and become Americans. It is not good to have millions of undocumented Mexicans in the country who have no intention of learning the language, customs, and becoming Americans.
I think in these 2 areas, we are in great danger of not being able to get back in control:
- Less behavioral control - definitely as new immigrants refuse to accept mores and customs.
- Less investment in the defining characteristics of that civilization - Yes, as attacks on the Judeo-Christian culture increase.
I think we peaked at about the 50's and it was all down hill from then. The corruption began way before that though.i'm curious- what decade would you consider to be the time when america was still a great country? that's probably a whole other thread.
Pirates shall inherit the earth. (think about it, who survives to plunder the next experimental settlement?)
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3XSaSKmF8&feature=related[/ame]
THIS is what I hope wins out in the end--each one playing their own cultural tune alongside another playing their own cultural tune, and it FITS together, it compliments--not a blend/mish mash blah blah. Despite the angst of our present day(which in part is probably due to information overload, the general feeling of malaise I mean), I truly believe we are ALSO on the cusp of something really good, IF there's enough folks willing to commit. On the other hand this demands a clear vision of what the variables are.
anywas, I found a cool utube and thought it played nice with this thread
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3XSaSKmF8&feature=related[/ame]
THIS is what I hope wins out in the end--each one playing their own cultural tune alongside another playing their own cultural tune, and it FITS together, it compliments--not a blend/mish mash blah blah. Despite the angst of our present day(which in part is probably due to information overload, the general feeling of malaise I mean), I truly believe we are ALSO on the cusp of something really good, IF there's enough folks willing to commit. On the other hand this demands a clear vision of what the variables are.
anywas, I found a cool utube and thought it played nice with this thread
Manifest Destiny was certainly not our brightest example of greatness. We all want to believe that the county that was created by our founding fathers still exists, but I think that it is just a shadow of our past. Would the founders of our country look on our current situation and believe that they succeeded or failed? Would the recognized the country they created? Would you sacrifice your life to hold our flag up, as did those brave souls at the fort when being attacked by the British? How many people do you know that would do that?What you're saying, in essence, is that it's all just false advertising and always has been, all the way back to the days of the old west. That it never was a great country at any time, that it's always just been a facade. Perhaps there is some truth in that. Perhaps America is just now beginning to realize that. Perhaps now is the time for America to throw away the facade and start all over again to rebuild what still could be a great country in fact. :shrug:
.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc1lpe5qMls[/ame]
See also 'The Coming Dark Age" sorry, I forget the author.
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