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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few months ago I sold a 3 year old Nigerian Drawf cross doe. She was 5 months past kidding and still milking about 1 quart a day. Yesterday the people that purchased her, brought her back. They really love her, but just realized that they weren't equiped to care for her properly and didn't really know enough. I took her back and am really perplexed by her condition.

She is unable to stand up for more than a few seconds on her front feet. She moves around by walking on her back feet and her front knees. She is obviously in pain. Her front "knees" have extremely thick pads on them indicating that she has been this way for some time. She also has some minor bleeding around those big pads. The hooves have no odor.

Her most obvious "symptom" is her completely overgrown hooves. I typically trim my own goats, but this was so overgrown that I didn't really know where to begin. So I had the goat farrier come out late last night and trim them up. We spent over two hours carefully cutting away the hoof. The farrier cut a lot off, but not quite as much as she really needs. We were afraid that she would have more issues if we took too much off. We treated with Kopertox after the cutting and then again this morning.

The inner part of the hoof is white and a little soft. The outer rim is so hard that we almost couldn't even cut them. Much harder than I have ever seen and the farrier said that she had never seen anything so hard. All four are very tender, but the front feet seem to be the worst.

Her temperature is normal, she is eating well. But cries in pain often. I haven't been able to find a goat vet to come take a look at her. I don't think that in her current condition, I should take her anywhere since it would be about 50 miles to the nearest "good" vet, who knows anything about goats. (plus they couldn't even see her until friday) She seemed very slightly bloated when I got her back yesterday afternoon, but seems okay now. I offered her some baking soda but she wasn't interested.

Right now I am only feeding her grass/alfalfa mix hay. I suspect that there is a nutritional component here. They were giving her cattle feed to increase her milk production and she is now giving almost 2 quarts a day. I did give her a few plain oats on the milkstand, but am afraid to give her much. (Oh and a handful of raisins during her very painful hoof trimming)

This morning I soaked her front feet in an herbal bath of epsoms salts, garlic and oregano. All things to help speed healthing and reduce either fungus or bacterial infections. I am just stumped since she has no foul smell, no discharge, and no other obvious symptoms.

She is mainly just laying down, but will get up on those knees when I go out. She is not even standing to pee. (is that word allowed on the forum? Sorry, can't think of anything else) Her spirits don't seem bad, she just seemed to be in a lot of pain.

Any suggestions?
Liz
 

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Has she been tested for CAE?

It could be that her feet just hurt from having the long hooves torgue them into unnatural angles.
 

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WOW!!!! I would like to strangle people that will not take care of their animals. At least they had enough since to bring her back.
I would say for now to work slow with the hooves. I have a friend that took in a goat that had runners in his feet because his hoofs were so ever grown. I was sick when I saw the. It took several months to get him to where he was not on his knees to eat.
Did you say she was in pain? I use Arnica Montana when I have a goat that is showing any signs of pain. It is wonderful stuff.
I am not a milking person, but I would say she should dry up and let her body stop working overtime.
Have you given her any Nutra drench? Also free choice loose minerals.
Good for you for taking her back in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
In doing research and having her looked at, I would definately say that she has foundered. The good thing is that it isn't something that is going to spread to the rest of my goats. (I don't have a good way to seperate her from my does...it is either with the does or with the buck) The bad news is that she will never fully recover.

I think that these people really do care for her, but just really didn't realize that she was being overfed grain. I think they just thought that they were increasing her milk production. I am so glad that I got her back. I am glad that I followed up, that is how I found out that they were trying to sell her and then offered to take her back. I didn't know until she got here, what her condition was.

Now I just don't know what to do with her. Will she get well enough to become a productive member of the herd? Should I have her put down. If I thought that her currrent condition was the best she would ever be, I would certainly put her down. Her current quality of life is so poor.

I could find a pet only home, but she will always need some special care. Most "pet" homes are really trained or equiped to deal with special issues.
 

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If she were mine, Iwould not let her go to another home, that just would not be an option. She deserves to be at your farm now. Do you foresee her improving if you dedicated yourself to working on those feet and doing what all needs to be done to bring her back to her best self? if not, put her down if her quality of life is miserable. Be glad you got her back so she could be at home whichever route you chose. Sorry she is in this situation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think that she will be here for the duration. I just don't know if she will ever be really "comfortable." How do you know with a goat if they are "happy?"

I hate to think that she would be like that race horse. Spent all that time in pain, and ultimately had to be put down anyway.

This evening, I did see her playing with my little buckling. She was still on those knees, but she was head butting and seemed to enjoy the company. Since I know that it is founder now, I have put her back with the other goats. She seems to be happy
 

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How long was she with the other folks? I mean, how long is a few months? If she has been crawling for a long time, her hooves would grow at a tremendous rate from having no pressure on them and no natural filing down. If she were only there 3 months, I would suspect some other problem that has caused her to lose strength in her front legs. That would, in turn, cause the overgrown hooves. Too much grain, on top of that, would not help. I'm just saying, it might depend on how long she was there as to what I might suspect. I've seen goats with other problems that went down in front like that, only to die a month or two later. I hope that is not the case here. It might be just simply a case of founder but I thought I'd throw this idea at you anyway!! Maybe you could get some more info out the folks who had her. The thing is, nutritional problems are one cause of founder but other underlying illnesses cause it also. I assume she was raised on a good loose mineral for goats (only goats). The other thing, how long ago was she tested for CAE? If it was just done once when she was younger, I'd strongly consider retesting her, just to be on the safe side. CAE can be passed to other herd members through blood and she is apparently bleeding on her knees. You know goats too....we have injuries show up now and then. I think they are mostly from horns though. You might not have horns on your goats. Anyway, the poor girl. I feed so sorry for her. I'd take her off grain completely since it will only worsen the condition. Just don't do it cold turkey. Then, make sure to keep up on hoof trimming every couple of weeks for her. It will help keep it under control. I am so, so sorry for this. What an awful thing to watch. I agree that it was good for them to give her back to you. You are doing the right thing. Good luck and God bless!!
 

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if she is on her knees for so long, have you checked if she can straighten up her knees or are they tight? the tendons will tighten up in this position and shew will never walk again. even if it is painful for her, force her to walk every day. a doe on her knees does not has a quality life anymore.
so sorry for both of you.
 

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Just because she was shown 4h does not mean she was tested for cae. It is not a requirement.
 

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I think especially with a Nigerian you can tell if the are on their way to being happy. One thing you may want to do for her would be to get her the Blue Seal Sunshine Plus and add it to her diet. It has a special fortifier for her hooves to get them closer to normal.Also, there is a product that I have just started to use for the hooves, and it is expressively for use in not only horses but goats as well. Its called vita hoof but you may want to really look at all the available hoof products some keep them stronger some just relieve. It just seems a bit unfair to put her down after her ordeal. Many horses are able to have happier if not totally productive lives. I would agree to go ahead and dry her off though, she will need all the help she can get and all of her energy too. Good luck. Good for you for checking up on her!!

Kerrin


Lizzieag said:
I think that she will be here for the duration. I just don't know if she will ever be really "comfortable." How do you know with a goat if they are "happy?"

I hate to think that she would be like that race horse. Spent all that time in pain, and ultimately had to be put down anyway.

This evening, I did see her playing with my little buckling. She was still on those knees, but she was head butting and seemed to enjoy the company. Since I know that it is founder now, I have put her back with the other goats. She seems to be happy
 

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I think it's CAE. Goats don't have to be CAE negative to be shown in 4H. Do NOT Put her in with the rest of your goats, especially when you don't know for sure what's wrong with her, and if she's not tested for CL as well... I'd be very wary of her.

Get some blood drawn from the doe and send it in for testing. To be extra sure of false negs/positives, you could send in 2x the amount they need for testing and have them run the tests on her blood twice.
 

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My goat Sandy walks on her knees in the front. She has cae. I really think your goat has cae. From what I have heard the cae tests are not alway correct. I know in horses if they founder they have heat in there hooves and lines will form. Dont know about goats though. But sounds like cae to me. I put Sandy on the B-L pellets i believe they are called. Has natural pain killer herbs in it. Sandy is still walking on her knees but is a very happy healty goat. Once in a while she will get up on her feet to try and play. Kind of sad though. HOpe you find out what the problem is. Keep us undated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I did have her checked for CAE just before she left, it was negative. I went back and looked at the dates and she was only with them for 6 weeks. Vet says it is founder.

I have been doing soaks twice a day with epsoms salts, garlic, oregano, and lavender. Plus massaging those front legs really well twice a day. She is showing huge signs of improvement.

She is now standing to pee. Standing up on her rear legs to play, but still "walking" on the knees for the most part. She can walk on her front legs for about 20-30 feet now and she is doing it without coaxing. When I first got her back she couldn't take more than 2 steps on her own and cried in pain. Considering that this has only been a few days it is a major improvement.

Her hooves still look awful. I guess she foundered bad enough to cause the foot bones to come down in the foot and press the foot out.

I found out that they had been giving her unlimited grain. I said to " free feed lose minerals." They "free fed mineral enriched feed" Big huge difference!

These are some of the nicest people I have ever met, just not clear enough on goat care.
 

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This is good news. I had thought that any foundering was permanent.

Please keep us posted on her recovery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
She is doing even better today. This morning she was standing on her back legs at the gate. Happy to see me. She is is still spending a lot of time on her knees, but is walking some. Hopefully she will just countinue to improve.
 

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Lizzieag said:
She is doing even better today. This morning she was standing on her back legs at the gate. Happy to see me. She is is still spending a lot of time on her knees, but is walking some. Hopefully she will just countinue to improve.
Just wanted to say that I think you are awesome for caring so much about this girl!!
 
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