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"Originally Posted by WindowOrMirror
I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you think an abortion is akin to murder, you're really a hero, meddling or not. If she was fixin' to go to someone's house and shoot them, and you called in a warrant on her, you'd be preventing a murder, yes? Add to this that most Catholics (and some Lutherans and others) believe that souls of babies go straight to purgatory, and you have a worldview that quite easily justifies almost any action here.

Not saying I'm carrying that exact same worldview, just that it's understandable.

R "


Is this true? I am not highly in tune with organised religion, I believe myself to be a religious / spiritual person, though. I have never heard of such a thing as an innocent baby's soul being sent to hell.
Is this what is being taught?
I am floored by this post to another thread.
 

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I'm no longer a Catholic, but I can tell you that purgatory is not hell. Purgatory is a stopping off place for the cleansing of unrepented sins before one reaches heaven.....or so they say.
 

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I was brought up Lutheran, and while they don't believe in purgatory, they do believe that infant baptism will guarantee a spot in heaven. I do remember attending a funeral for a baby who was born with severe disabilities and died at only a few weeks old - the Lutheran pastor preached that he "hoped that God would let the child in heaven", but he didn't know for sure because the baby was never baptized. Even as a kid, I thought it was a horrible way to comfort parents who just lost their son.
 

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Just an FYI, Catholic doctrine used to teach that any unbaptised baby's soul would go to purgatory. But the Pope changed that teaching/clarified it, a few years ago and declared that not to be the case.
 

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Check out this document It is in regards to Pope Benedicts' change in limbo/purgatory & how they relate to the unbaptized infant.

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized.
 

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I am neither Catholic nor Lutheran - I am simply "Christian". I find nothing in the Bible to support the "stopping off place" known in some religions as Purgatory. I also do not personally believe in infant baptism for the same reason -there is no Bliblical foundation for it.

It is my belief (based on Biblical principal and teaching) that babies, children, and the child-like in their comprehension, trust and understanding are NOT judged in the same way we as adults - who know right from wrong - are judged.
Ditto
 

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Just my dos pesos, but my belief is that the spirit that oversees us doesn't get hung up in all this doctrine stuff.
 

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Just remember that "religion" and all it's "rules" are man -made.

Go to the Bible, The Word of God, if you want to know what is real.

I grew up Catholic, and when I finally started actually listening to what was being taught and how they were always changing the rules, I had to drop out. I don't mean to offend or start trouble, this is what "I" believe.

Rosemary
 

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Go to the Bible, The Word of God, if you want to know what is real.

Rosemary
And unfortunately ... reality check here ... the Bible itself is *not* the actual "Word of God" ... He did not write it.

It is the words of men writing down what they believed to be the "Word of God". This was followed by an untold number of translations from one language to another. Then an unknown number of "revisions" to fit what the person translating believed the original writer to mean ... or to what the writer himself believed.

This is why I personally believe that religion and belief should be left to the individual. I do not believe that anyone has the right, or should have the right, to impose their specific religion and/or beliefs on any other person. I personally see this as religious persecution.

If you really want nightmares, read accounts of the Inquisition ... where the Church of the time was "empowered" to force their beliefs on anyone who did not believe in the same doctrine. Religious persecution at its worst.
 

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I am neither Catholic nor Lutheran - I am simply "Christian". I find nothing in the Bible to support the "stopping off place" known in some religions as Purgatory. I also do not personally believe in infant baptism for the same reason -there is no Bliblical foundation for it.

It is my belief (based on Biblical principal and teaching) that babies, children, and the child-like in their comprehension, trust and understanding are NOT judged in the same way we as adults - who know right from wrong - are judged.

Some refer to this as the "age of accountability" (though this is not specifically called that in the Bible)

and refers to a time, an age, and an understanding that at some point a child will reach regarding choosing good over evil, choosing right over wrong, etc.

It may seem harsh to us - in our limited understanding - that God would stand in judgement of anyone -let alone a child.

But a basic tenent of my belief is that God is just. And I trust in Him to judge justly.

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25.

I believe that my God CAN be trusted with what is unknown -unknowable - to us.

Truth, justice, and equity are the foundations of His throne.

I Cor. 4:5, Rev. 2:23, Heb. 4:12-13, Eccl. 12:14, Rom. 2:15-16.

I hope that helps.

A word of advice: Try NOT to define and limit God with our limited earthly understanding -to me thats trying to stuff God into a box. And He is so much more than our understanding can conceive -thats why He is God.
Very well said.
 

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Well said WIHH, I am Catholic..but I don't believe in confession...nowhere in the Bible does it say I need to tell my sins to a middle man...I talk directly to God,,I can repent,,without being told to. and I don't believe I'll go to Hell for not confessing to a priest..and yes..priests can be jerks just like anyone else...we have one right now that fits that bill often..

Being a Christian is so much more than sitting in church...abortion..I don't believe in and not because I am Catholic..I have 2 brothers who are handicapped..one a Downs Syndrome guy..the other born with cerebral palsey..both are fun,,loving men...can't imagine life without them..
I firmly believe the Lord gave them to us for a purpose..

Judi
 

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Just an FYI, Catholic doctrine used to teach that any unbaptised baby's soul would go to purgatory. But the Pope changed that teaching/clarified it, a few years ago and declared that not to be the case.
Actually, if memory serves me right, purgatory & limbo are NOT the same. IMHO-it's a moot point. I really have no clue what God intends but I cannot see an innocent babe being sent anywhere but heaven.

There is reference in the Bible of not entering heaven w/o baptism. Therefore the belief that babies would not go if not baptized. I just choose not to think that is the case.

Patty

PS-Catholic Church & maybe some others teach, or used to, that purgatory is a place souls go-there is suffering-to attone for sins until they are sufficiently 'cleansed' for Heaven. I don't recall seeing any Bible reference therefore I think it's another 'man-made' guilt trip!
Limbo (again-no bible reference?) is supposed to be a place of perfect happiness but not heaven. (?? yeah, right-again a man-made idea?)
 

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I'd also like to make the point that this isn't "my" view, just a view held by many. Understanding this view you see why people act the way that they do.

Nothing personal, and my view differs slightly.

R
 

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Just an FYI, Catholic doctrine used to teach that any unbaptised baby's soul would go to purgatory. But the Pope changed that teaching/clarified it, a few years ago and declared that not to be the case.
Can you give a reference / link to the papal bull? (and thank you for clarifying)

R
 

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I was not raised in a religious household my parents came from 2 differing religions and allowed us access to materials but felt spiritual morality would lead to the path each of us would take. I have heard my parents described as better Christians than many because of their views but never once did they ever call themselves Christians.

My beliefs vary from my siblings and they came to me thru my own quest. On the subject of baptism I beleieve it is a choice people make to dedicate themselves to a specific church or religious following. I once was on a high school trip and one of the members of our choir was a born again christian and we got onto this very subject of baptism and getting into Heaven. When I told them all I had never been baptised in a church she declared my very soul in jeopardy at which I replied to her it wasn't because I was baptised at birth by Our Creator. She looked at me totally confused and declared I didn't know what I was talking about. One of our other friends then asked me what I meant. I told them I was baptised by the Waters of Life and didn't need any other type of baptism.

I was never bothered again by any of them again about baptism.

I tend to believe there is no purgatory after death- you make your own purgatory in the way you live your life. Our Creator gave us Choice which he gave no other beings on Earth and we must abide by our choices. If we make the wrong ones then we must suffer the consequences. That for some is purgatory. A person can be a good Christian according to the doctrines they follow but if they do not treat all their fellow Man with respect as we are all Children of the Creator then do we deserve eternal rewards?
 

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What you are all talking about is Limbo, not Purgatory.

It was not official Church teaching. It was a theological theory proposed by theologians to try to answer the question of where do the souls of unbaptised babies go. Yes, I know, generations of Catholic children were taught by Sisters that it WAS official Church teaching, but it was not.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1261):
"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
 

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My church won't even baptize a child until they are old enough to decided that they want to be baptized. They don't look at it as a requirement so much as a public declaration of your christianity.

I believe babies/infants/children automatically go to heaven until they reach the age of purposely and knowingly making evil choices, by which I don't mean a curse word parroted from somewhere, but a conscious decision to turn away from God.

ETA: I also believe all Down's or other mentally handicapped people have access to heaven, because they lack the skills to make a conscious decision on their spiritual lives.
 

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Actually, if memory serves me right, purgatory & limbo are NOT the same. IMHO-it's a moot point. I really have no clue what God intends but I cannot see an innocent babe being sent anywhere but heaven.

There is reference in the Bible of not entering heaven w/o baptism. Therefore the belief that babies would not go if not baptized. I just choose not to think that is the case.

Patty

PS-Catholic Church & maybe some others teach, or used to, that purgatory is a place souls go-there is suffering-to attone for sins until they are sufficiently 'cleansed' for Heaven. I don't recall seeing any Bible reference therefore I think it's another 'man-made' guilt trip!
Limbo (again-no bible reference?) is supposed to be a place of perfect happiness but not heaven. (?? yeah, right-again a man-made idea?)
Please tell me where in the bible it says you can't go if not baptized? Rember the thief on the cross?
 
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