food and wormer

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Dee, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    My does have been looking so bad since the winter. They were wormed with Cydectin then Valbazin then Cydectin. Stool sample showed lots of Strongyles so Cydectin again followed by the new wormer pellets made by Manna. Still terrible and stool sample showed again "loaded" with worms.

    Now, we've had alot of rain here. And I had alot of kids this year. But I also have 6 acres for them to run in, not a small lot. The bucks and doelings are now being weaned in different pens. The doelings look the best.

    So here are the questions. I call the goats in with food and usually worm them as or right after they have had their grain. Is it possible that the food is interferring with the wormer? I am also starting to wonder if my guesstimation of their weight is wrong. The goat tape isn't accurate for meat goats. Would it hurt to give a cc more, just to be sure? And could it be that the worms and lice are working together to try to drive me out of the goat business? :grump: I tell ya, I'm seriously thinking it's really not worth it lately.
     
  2. LynninTX

    LynninTX Well-Known Member

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    Are you rounding up when you give the cydectin?

    I give at 1cc per 22lbs then round up ...

    for instance one of my does is 165lbs....

    154lbs = 7cc
    176lbs = 8cc

    I gave 8cc. No clue on the grain we never feed ours when worming. I normally worm midday.
     

  3. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    I also always give a bit extra Cydectin. It is better to give a bit too much Cydectin than a bit too little. Here's why: Too much Cydectin, within reason, will not harm the goat. Besides, you have to account for the smeared wormer that doesn't even get into the goat...around the lips, on your fingers, etc. So i usually round up 1 or 2 cc per animal. If you give too little, you kill off the more vulnerable worms and leave the stronger worms that were not affected by the wormer. They are the ones then left to multiply. They are more resistant to the wormer...just naturally stronger worms. The next time you use "not quite enough wormer" the same thing happens. The weaker worms die, leaving only the tougher worms to reproduce. A very bad siruation developes. So i really dose my goats good and then again in 19 days to kill off the little baby worms that managed to hatch out from eggs that have hatched inside the goat. This breaks the life cycle.

    People "abused" the wormer "Panacur" (safeguard) and this is why it no longer works.

    Also, cydectin kills internal paracites as well as external (lice, mites) so keep up you worming program and those paracites should disappear as well.
     
  4. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense Diane. They range from 125 to 150 pounds. So you would say, 7cc for the 125 and 8cc for the 150?

    I heard somewhere that the weight tape isn't accurate for the Boer goats.
     
  5. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    That's about what I give. I have a site bookmarked, if I can find it, that says Cydectin is not harmful if slightly overdosed. I hesitate to tell someone to give a goat more than the standard dose as it may come back to haunt me, but it is what I do and have had no problems. Never pour the cydectin on a goat, always give it by mouth as pouring it on IS harmful.

    No, the weight tape is not accurate for Boers. Boers weigh more than you think...they are like lead.
     
  6. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    Thank you both for taking the time to answer my questions.
     
  7. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    They already answer the question well, but did want to put this into the back of your mind. Folks who have problems with worms over and over even with the correct use of Cydectin, need to think about the stress level in their goats. Whats going on at your farm? Is it a dog, neighborhood kids, or is it nutritional stress? Are you in a copper defficient area? Using a salt lick or mineral block instead of loose minerals? Something is not allowing your goats to build natural immunity to the worms in your area, the answer is usually stress.

    Also no food has nothing to do with worming, although the wormer is given by mouth alot of the drug is absorbed into the bloodstream via the mucous membranes of the mouth, alot of what is swollowed is carrier, but some wormer also, it's what slows down how long the womers work in the system, a good thing. And your goats rumen is never empty anyway, even if you were to fast her, it is still full of roughage. Vicki
     
  8. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    This is the first year since using Cydectin that I've had problems with worms. It has been a real rainy season. (lice yes, worms no)

    No stress here. No dogs or children. These are the most spoiled goats.

    They won't eat free minerals, never have. I do top dress it on their food but it is possible that something is lacking. Wish I had a vet that I could talk this over with to find out for sure.

    Thanks for the adivce Vicki
     
  9. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    Mine wouldn't eat the horse minerals I put out for them. Then I got actuall goat mineral with a way lower salt content and they eat it like candy. You may want to try this, if you haven't already.
    What about trying ivermectin?
     
  10. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the minerals I got were a general farm animal (not for sheep) by Blue Seal. I have my dog vet that is willing to look up goat stuff for me. She was the one who found the lice were biting, not sucking lice. That was why the Ivermectin wasn't working. I'll see if she can do a test for lacking minerals in a blood test or something.

    I was doing a rotation of Ivermectin and SafeGuard for my goats until I lost a kid. Vet did an animal autopsy and found her filled with worms which surprised me because I was so faithful with worming back then. Switch to the Cydecdin and they all gained weight and did really well for two years.

    I'm going to try everything suggested here. I thank you all for your time and thoughts. Sorry if it is repeated questions...shear frustration is all.
     
  11. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    What's the ppm of copper in the Blue Seal? Also you can make minerals more palatable for goats by adding kelp, it doesn't have to be a large amount. Before finding my mineral I mixed Purina's beef cattle loose mineral ( the highest ppm of copper we have in this area) with kelp, it kept the girls eating it...but this time of year we don't go through the mineral we do when they are bred or just fresh. Vicki
     
  12. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    As far as the quaestion, again, about "food and wormer", I am rememerbering something about the instructions on the label of the horse version of panacur and ivermectin (the paste tubes). I believe it says something like "don't give to the horse with food in it's mouth". The reason for this is because the horse can much more easily just spit the wormer out along with the food instead of swallowing it. It has nothing to do with inhibiting effectiveness of the wormer. I am wondering if that might be what is part of the concern.
     
  13. Dee

    Dee Well-Known Member

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    Okay Vicki
    Blue Seal One-to-one mix for dairy catle, horses, beef and goats.
    Copper,Min is 1300 ppm. Selenium, Min is 33 ppm. I usually just put some in their feed to get them to eat it. If the copper is right, I will try Kelp, if I can find some... probably for horse feed.