f-250?

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by BrushBuster, Jun 22, 2004.

  1. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    i got an 86 f250 4x4 manuel 4 speed overdrive with a 302 with a very bad backmain seal, had it replaced and if anything it's worse.
    was thinking of just replacing the motor because the 302 is really lacking for power to pull my 20' gooseneck stock trailer.
    whats the biggest motor i can put in without having to change everything.
    351? open to suggestions. would really like to have a diesel dually but figure i'll probably just get buy with this for a couple more years.
     
  2. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

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    To 'change everything' means the bell houseing (bolt pattern) and the frame towers to the motor mounts if you chose to goto a big block. Also a 3 or 4 vein radiator will be needed to cool the bigger engine. If you buy a complete truckwith a big block,set them side by side, the change over is very easy, then sell the left overs as a basket case to recover your cash. If memory serves, the 351 Windsor interchanges with no problems. Not sure, check with others about this.
     

  3. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    the 351 winsor and the 351 clevland are identical in bore and stroke, HOWEVER the 351 Clevland has a heavier block, bigger heads and better valves/piston design for high rev high torque. to simplyfy your life find a 351C and it should direct bolt up replace your 302.
    you may have to swap a bellhousing and some other parts BUT since the 302 and 351 are both small blocks it should be a pretty easy change.

    find a donor truck with a 351 C and your in.

    you can go big block but then you have a whole lot of other stuff to swap.

    if you can do the jobs with the exsisting 302, the 351 C should do it with no difficulty.

    of course... a 390 or better is even more oomph... depends on how much work you wanna get into....
    I would try a 351C swapout and then if your not happy find a big block truck and covert.
     
  4. james dilley

    james dilley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Try a Perkins diesel it should bolt to the ford transmission. Or get a 460 ford engine that will pull in any event a diesel no matter what the make will work with a little revamping,I've been there and done that and will do it again soon.
     
  5. danielbrown

    danielbrown Active Member

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    Motor mounts are different between the 351W and 302. (What is a 302 doing in a F250 anyway?)

    the biggest motor you can use your stock tranny with is the rare Ford 400 w/ a small block bell housing from '73. Almost all 351M/400 engines had big block patterns.

    It not a big deal to change the bell housing on a manual tranny.

    If you want to tow a goose neck you need a towing motor,
    "small blocks" don't work has well.

    240, 300 are inline series motors. They are torqey and good for light towing.

    289, 302, and 351W are Windsor series motors (aka wheezer and smallblock)
    it was only put in small-mid size cars until ford ended production of the 351M (emissions) in '81 then it was put in trucks.

    351C, 351M, 400 are 335 series motors. The 351C ('70-'74) was a HI PO motor put in light-mid sized cars(not US trucks). The 351M/400 (351M '75-'81, 400 '70-'81)was put in full size cars and trucks. Good torque for towing, responds very well to minor aftermarket parts. There bad rep is untrue. the 400 has the longest stroke of any ford pushrod V8.

    429, 460 are 385 series motors (aka big blocks) put in about everything. Very good for towing, tends to get the same mileage loaded and unloaded.

    360/390/428 are FE (ford, edsel) series motors. very good torque but likes fuel.

    http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/Technical_index.htm
    http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/index.html

    if your state doesn't have emissions they any of these motors are legal.
     
  6. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    hmmm... kinda like the idea of going diesel, i was under the impression that that was alot of trouble.
     
  7. danielbrown

    danielbrown Active Member

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  8. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the links i'll check it out
     
  9. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    honestly if you do a good bit of towing you should sell your truck with the 302 and look for a good 80's diesel already made that way from the factory.... or just one already set up with a big block and a transmission made to tow loads.

    if your not into the process of hammering out the bugs in a swapout project, cnsider just swapping the whole truck. you may be better off.

    DB is right on the swap info. cleavlands were only made a few yrs and a 400M, being a good pick is a rare bird.
    he is also right in saying what is a 302 doing in a 250???

    is it the original engine or one someone tossed in?
     
  10. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    i think its original
    you probably right about just swapping trucks, this one seems to be in pretty good shape mechanically except for the motor. actually it runs good just leaks awfull.
     
  11. Blu3duk

    Blu3duk Well-Known Member

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    The perkins idea may not work in the '86, as the fords changed size from the late 70's when it was possible to change a perkins into one, In a '77 ford the is barely room left for the fan not to hit the radiator but it can be done in one of those....with an expected 18 MPG out of a 3/4 or 1 ton 4x4.... $3500.00 for most perkins in usable condition and then you put a few other thingson them to total about $5000.00 minus the labor involved.... a new old truck might cost less in the long run.

    I have a 300 bored 50 thousanths over, and 390 flattop pistons set in place.... cam shaft replaced with an RV cam, and another modifaction that causes vapor lock in most engines but not in this one.... went from 8 mpg to 15 mpg with about 4 times the HP and talk about torque!!!.... of course it has dual exhaust headers on it just to sound pretty..... not something i would put on anything but a hot rod usually.... and it bolts up to a 302 bell housing as well. Cost about $2500.00 for the second engine i put it after a cracked piston decided to knock about inside one day.... dont know what caused that either.

    You are talking bigger dollars to modify something than you are to replace it for the most part.... even with an unknown vehicles road worthiness in my opinion... of course if it were me i would dig into how to make a 302 havez as much power as they did in the late 50's and early 60's..... dad had a 2 ton F600 that got 19mpg loaded or empty with more than enough power to roll down the highway with a load of cattle or machinery or hay onboard..... think engine, trany and rearend playing together to make it all work for what you want it to do.

    William
     
  12. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    yea i think one of my problems is it geared to high. also i think it would be better with a 4 speed with the grany gear versus the 4 speed with the overdrive
     
  13. HermitJohn

    HermitJohn Well-Known Member

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    Interesting on the engines. I've never messed with lot of Fords. Liked the 300 6 cyl and the 390 though it was a gas sucker. Not so crazy about 460. Didnt know anything about the 400, but will if its a long stroke. Did it get significanly better mileage than the 390? I tend to like long stroked engines.

    I am basically wanting to do just the opposite with a '83 250 that was originally a diesel but somebody had stuck a 460 in it by time I bought it. 460 is on last legs and gets all of 4 to 6 mpg on hiway empty or full. Havent driven it for some time due to expensive gas and dont need to do any serious towing. Bought a used 300 6cyl with bellhousing and parts to downgrade it. Yes a 300 in a 3/4 ton is usefull, maybe more so than a 302 due to the 300 being torquey long stroke engine.

    Thing I really hate is that dumb 4 spd tranny. Its geared for the original diesel so kinda awkward. I'd much prefer granny 4. Not super important for my needs though since I can put truck in low range if really necessary.
     
  14. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

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    i had an 83 150 with 300 6 cyl and 4 speed granny and have no doubt that it would work circles around this one
     
  15. danielbrown

    danielbrown Active Member

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  16. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

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    No one has mentioned the 361 or the 391 commerical block, which would be allmost impossible to find without a bucket of gold. Look for the air compressor mounting holes to identify them.And there is the 548 if you want to do a hole shot with a loaded 32 foot goose neck! Power enought to tow the gas truck behine you!!
     
  17. Jackpine Savage

    Jackpine Savage Well-Known Member

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    I had an '80 F250 with the 302 and automatic, wasn't happy with that so went to the 351 in an '86 F250 and a '91 F250HD. The 351 had more power but the gas mileage would really take a dive when you worked it. Unloaded I got 11-12 mpg with the 351's. Loaded it could get as low as 6-7.

    Right now I have a F350 with the 7.3 diesel. I can get 18 mpg unloaded if I keep my foot out of it. Loaded I can still get 11-12.

    I learned to drive in a '68 F250 with a 360 and 4-speed. The 360 was a good motor.
     
  18. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    We had a 400 in an F 250 and it was a terrific motor for us. Got great milage for such a big engine, 18 mpg easily probably better on the hwy though it didn't get used there much. I should have kept that truck it was one of the best we've ever owned. Neat idea swapping in a Perkins never heard of that before.
     
  19. fordy

    fordy Well-Known Member

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    ..............The ideal diesel to drop intop a 70's f250\350 for the best mix of torque and mpg is the Cummins 4btv. It is the same engine as the 5.9 or 6btv MINUS 2 pistons. It is used extensively in Case backhoes and tractors , plus in some commercial van applications. It will reportedly get around 30 mpg and still deliver 475 ft'\#'s of torque to the rear wheels if configued correctly with the right injector pump , injectors , turbo and preturbo air cooler. This 3.9 liter diesel isn't much heavier than a 460 v8. To do a complete install would probably run 10 to 12 k. But just look at what you would have when finished. It has been reported that a Perkins is both expensive and hard to get parts for vs the cummins which is in widespread use here and lots of foreign countries.
    ...............I wish I had known about the cummins 3.9 liter when I did a complete rebuild on my 400 in my 77 f250, 4x4. In fact , if this engine will deliver 475 ft.#'s to the rear wheels it would Pull just about any trailer you could hook to it. If I sell my place I may yet decide to do this conversion as A 77 f250 with this engine would last me atleast 20 years or more. It would almost be bullet proof if it was equipped with the new 6 speed that is currently being installed in Dodge trucks...........fordy... :eek: :)