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Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by papaw, Aug 5, 2005.
Please tell me about the "slip clutch" that can be used on the 8N's ..... how do they work?
A "slip clutch" or what I believe you are referring to is the overrun clutch you install on the PTO output shaft of the tractor. Because of the way the PTO/trans on a 2N/9N/8N is designed you can actually drive the tractor by turning the PTO shaft and it doesn't matter if the clutch is depressed or not. Because of this if you use an implement that has a rotating mass that will keep rotating it will keep driving the tractor even when you want to stop. The piece you slip on the PTO shaft allows the shaft to drive the implement yet when the implement tries to keep the shaft turning the clutch freewheels. This prevents the power of the implement from driving the tractor.
In simple terms if you are bushhogging and come to a fence or ditch and want to stop it allows you to step on the clutch and apply the brake and stop the tractor. If you don't have one of these clutches when you come to the fence while bushogging you step on the clutch and the brake and the energy from the spinning blades of the bushhog drive the tractor through the fence.
The clutch itself is actually a sprag or roller clutch like is used in automatic transmissions. It has rollers in it that allow the outer shell to be drive by the inner shaft because the rollers ride up on ramps. When turned the opposite direction the rollers drop down in to the depression just before the ramp and allow the outer shell to turn free.
The slip clutch isnt a 8n "thing" What it does is goes on the PTO (Power take off) shaft on the back of the tractor. Most pto powered devices have a lot of momentem and will PUSH a tractor by driving the rear wheels from the PTO.
The slip clutch wil not allow the pulled device to power the tractor but still allow the tractor to power the device.
Think of a wratchet with a socket on it. One way you have torque to apply power, the other way it just spins.
YOU NEED AND WANT ONE ON an 8N.
I think you're asking about the "over run" or "over ride" clutch that allows the implement's pto to spin down after you stop the tractor's pto. Gary and Beeman did a good job of explaining how it works. It's a lot like a bicycle's rear wheel with the click you hear while coasting. If it wasn't there the wheel would continue to drive the pedals even when you weren't peddling.
A "slip clutch" usually goes between a brush hog or other implement, replacing the shear bolts that join the implement and the pto. It slips when too much power is applied too quickly or when the brush hog hits something. Otherwise, you'll replace shear bolts all day. It's different that an over run or over ride clutch becayse it's just a smooth plate under tension.
:baby04: I love this place!! I always wondered why I had to put that thingy on the PTO before I put the brush hog on..........now I know
OK, in my job, I work with lots of rotating equipment. I kinda knew what it was and sorta had a feel for what it did .... I didn't know if it had any seperate controls or if, once in place, it just did it's job. Now, I have a question about what Gary said .... "not an 8N thing" ???? I thought an 8N had to have one (an over run clutch) or it wouldn't be safe to cut with.
Am I confusing the "over run" and the "slip" clutch?
The people who seem to be "down" on the 8N as a small farm tractor always note the PTO as the major problem .... if these clutches work .... what's the problem? Are they extremely expensive? Hard to operate? Tear up often ? ? ? It looks like if they work as described, there's no problem with stopping while mowing.
Thank you folks for the info ... any other info on these Red Bellys would be very much appreciated .
I heard about one when DH said he tore his up on his John Deere.
Didn't have a clue what it was before then. After he explained it to me. I said don't you get back on that thing until you get another one.
You definately need one for a 8n.
I have a feeling that is why some of the deaths occur when bush hogging. They can't stop them and they overturn without one.
Here is a source for a decent overruning coupler at a decent price
I believe Gary should have said "it's not JUST an 8N thing" ... it's ALL old tractors should have one.
These clutches work. Most folks who are down on old tractors seem to think everybody "needs" a newer, more modern tractor to get anything done. (They're part of the same mindset that says if a vehicle doesn't have power everything and air conditioning, it's no good.)
Well, if you're using the tractor a whole lot, that might be true ... but, if you're only using the tractor infrequently for relatively small jobs, it's kind of hard to justify the cost of a modern tractor.
These clutches aren't expensive. (I paid about $50 for a quick-connect one earlier this year.) They are made either with a quick-connector or holes so they can be pinned 'semi-permanently' to the PTO shaft. (Personally, I prefer the quick-connect model.)
No, they're not hard to operate. Once they're connected and everything 'clicks' into place, the clutch will take care of itself.
They don't tear up often ... just be sure to keep them well-greased. I've had one fail in seven years.
.................I know enough about the "8N" and the other small tractors of this size and age that I Don't Want One . I've driven them , plowed with them , "tried" to dig postholes with them and they just don't have enough power and are TOO antiquated for my purposes to invest 3 or 4 thousand bucks in one and the implements . For about 8k I can find a good used diesel ford with a frontend loader and the other implements that I can really do some work with . I won't invest a Penny in a Tractor without a FE loader . As a second tractor maybe , but NOT as my primary dirtmoving mochine . fordy..
I'll be short here, not to be rude but to be clear:
You are not talking about a slip clutch, you are talking about an Over Running Coupler - ORC. Those are 2 seperate things and do way different things for you.
The ORC is needed for any tractor that does not have live pto, and is being used with a heavy, flywheel type of device - like a brush hog. Because the rear wheels & the pto shaft are controled by only 1 clutch on these types of tractors (Ford 8N, IHC H & M, and many other old tractors) you need the ORC for safety sake.
Now, beyond the safety issue, there is the part where a non-live pto just sucks for many jobs!!!!
If you run a baler & come across a bigger wad of hay, you push in the clutch to stop the tractor from moving - but that also stops the pto from spinning, and your baler will plug up for sure. Then every time you start from a standstill, you have to start moving & start the implement spinning at the same time.....
If you blow snow, the N series has a pretty fast reverse, and again you get a pile of snow behind you, got to push in the clutch to stop moving, & the blower stops running too. Have to shift to nuetral, let out clutch to start blower again, wait a bit, push in clutch, shift into gear, let out clutch to start both the blower spinning & tractor moving at the same time - to plug right up with snow again.
And on & on.
With live pto, you don't need the ORC, but that is a small part of it. It is so much easier to _do_ things with live pto. You can stop movment of the tractor, change gears, stop for a while, _all_ while the pto continues to power your implement!!!!!!
That is a _huge_ deal with many jobs we want our tractors to do. Balig, snow blowing, grass mowing - all so much easier. As well you can start your implement spinning, then start moving forward in gear - this is nice for sickle mowers, etc. Much better than trying to start both the implement & driving at the same exact time - easier for the engine to do one at a time as well if it is a big load for a few hp.
There is such a world of difference between the transmission pto (non-live) and a live pto.
Not just an 8n think would have been better wording. Most older tractors needs them. They are MUCH needed on the smaller 8n where the implement can come close to weighing as much as the tractor.
I think the biggest problem is people try to make the 8N what it is not. ITS NOT a modern COMPACT tractor. Its a nice little 50+ year old general purpose tractor and served many peoples needs in its day. They are a rock solid tractor if maintained and generally easy to maintain. Now a days, plowing, bush hogging or blade work is about all they are used for.
I think the biggest problem is people try to make the 8N what it is not. ITS NOT a modern COMPACT tractor. Its a nice little 50+ year old general purpose tractor and served many peoples needs in its day. They are a rock solid tractor if maintained and generally easy to maintain. Now a days, plowing, bush hogging or blade work is about all they are used for.[/QUOTE]
I have found a man who makes an attachment for the "N"'s that gives it "live hydrolics". This will allow the hydrolics to be used whether or not the PTO is turning. This along with the "over run" clutch will address my concerns about the 8N.
Here is his site if anyone's interested:
The N series tractors are incredible pieces of equipment. Especially considering how well they worked and how long they have been useful. The drawbacks to the 2,9,8N have all been overcome in the evolution of the tractor. Just going a few years newer in series will give you all of the working things you want on a tractor instead of trying to add things to the N series tractors. I have a 52 8N and I love it. I plan on restoring it and keeping it in a garage for a play thing. I didn't know jack about tractors and I bought this N over 20 yrs. ago. It has served me well and it has had all of it's shortcomings. It is a great little fun tractor to use but if you ever use any other newer tractor you will quickly see how much of a difference there is.
The N series were all 6 volt tractors with point ignition. Many have been converted to 12v but usually they have point burning problems and require electronic ignition to be dependable. They are extremely low on horse power. They do not have live hydraulics and also usually have extremely worn out pumps from 50+ years of use. The pumps are also prone to picking up water that gets into the housing thru the shifter boot. This will cause breaking of the pump if left out in freezing weather.They have the PTO overrun problem. They have much too fast of a ground speed to work well with implements. If you do any research you will find info about aftermarket transmissions like the Sherman that went in between the engine and trans to lower the gear ratio and slow the tractor down while keeping engine RPM in the working range. If you go for a 2 or 9 N then you have the brake/clutch problem. For some reason they thought people had 3 legs when they built those tractors. The left brake and clutch are on the left side of the tractor and the rt. brake is on the rt. side. Go down an incline and need to stop, if you step on the clutch with your left foot and the brake with your right the tractor will spin around. If you live through that try having it happen while going backwards.
The good part of an 8N is it's a great, fun little tractor that if used well within it's limitations will serve you well but will extremly limit what you can do with your tractor. It looks like a tractor should and will retain it's value as a collectors item.
I agree with Gary and Beeman. I like my 8n but recognize it's limitations.
I guess I'm not bothered by "older" equipment as much as some. If a problem has been addressed with a working modern attachment, I'm OK with that.
I shoot a flintlock, prefer a recurve bow and I flyfish ... my favorite truck is a '52 Chevy 3100 ... and so on .... being old isn't a bad thing as long as one is aware of the limitations. For what I need in a tractor, the 8N will do just fine. I ask questions because I know several of you have them and can offer me a great deal of help and advice. I could and do sometimes ask questions on the YT forum ...but I'm more comfortable here. I'd still like all the advice you're willing to share on owning and using an 8N .... and which implements are best suited to these tractors. Plows, post hole diggers, blades ...ect.
Has anyone used any of the attachments off the site I gave? Zane Sherman's home page .... the "live hydrolics" sounded interesting.
As I said I have and love my old 8N. I also have a 2 bottom plow and a post hole digger that I have run with my 8N. To plow with an 8N is frustrating in hard ground. It also as I said in a previous post has too fast of a ground speed which makes plowing even harder. The post hole digger is another lesson in frustration with an 8N. To raise the auger you have to have the PTO engaged and your foot off the clutch. With the non live hydraulics that means the auger will spin every time you wish to raise it. If you don't want it to spin while raising it you will have to remove the implements shaft from the PTO and then reattach it when it's time to turn it. The power of the 8N's hydraulics are generally a little on the weak side so pulling the auger back out of the ground can be a problem too. Scrape blades are OK, again speed is a draw back.
Zane is a cool guy. Good products. Are you looking at his pump which is prety much a power strearing pump - runs off the fan belt? He also has a 'Zane Thing' which makes the 3pt a 'position' lever. Real handy. Of course, it's only money....
Post hole diggers are a limitation with an N, as they need the pto running to make the hyd pump work - gets kinda difficult when the pto, hyd, and all is locked together through the clutch, trying to clean out a hole.
The little fellas are neat for light tillage, running a small grain auger, pulling a small wagon around, and so forth. Heavy use of hyd or pto or 3pt or implements you need to start & stop moving a lot & they quickly lose their appeal.
Zane says he has a "live hydrolics" attachment for the N. It is supposed to "fix" the post hole limitaions. I'm still studying up on it. I was hoping someone out there in the "homesteading today" worls had experience with one.