euthinasia information

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by comfortablynumb, Dec 18, 2003.

  1. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    I was reading old threads and found a few where euthinasia was being discusses/debated. I thought it would be good to post a few links here to some site where it is discussed in detail for animals, covering all methods and the pros/cons/tech info on it. Everyone with livestock/pets should read this and learn so you KNOW what is and isnt right... I read a lot of people guessing and having thier own methods that are not as mercyful as they sound (exaust fumes for one.. right gas wrong way to use it)

    http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

    that page is on the main site
    http://www.avma.org/resources/default.asp

    I discovered several facts i wasnt aware of and you may not be either. I didint think of it actually but PURE carbon monoxide is easily available in tanks, like argon or oxygen, (welding supply) and is pure and not at all like car fumes that choke and irritate the eyes and llungs. pumped into a contained area, pure CO from a tank safe, odor and irritant free and kills quietly. I am passing on the either method I have used before,and going to get a tank "for just in case". (but did discover it is a suitable anisthetic on most small animals, good to know when your forced to stitch up one in an emergency BUT LEARN HOW BEFORE YA TRY IT..I'll pst some instructions later, it is NOT safe, or risk free it is very risky to use, but if you need it NOW to save an animals life, wouldnt you LIKE to know how it can be used, even with the risks? I dont know about you, but Id rather do it myself than to wait til tomorrow when the dog is bleeding to death) CO is cheap enough for most anyone to afford with no trouble obtaining it. All you need is the standard cardboard box with a hole in it for the hose. this is a great realization for me, I cant stand shotting animals anymore, I've had to do it to many times.

    I looked up nirtus oxide, as you can get that in any auto parts store for the fuel systems on some cars (hot rods ect). I discovered even though it is an anithetic, and will kill a person in high concentration, this does NOT happen with most animals who tolorate it even at 100% concentration. the only ise nitrus has in animals is when used with other inhalants.

    another sheet of chemical info on the subject;
    http://www.fsu.edu/~FSULAR/euthcht.html

    and another very good one
    http://www.fauvet.fau.edu/webtrng/Euthanasia/euthanasiatraining3.htm
    this is a whole website on euthinasia training.

    another one that looked interesting;
    http://las.rutgers.edu/manual/ch10.htm

    If you have another link, add it. this is stuff everyone with animals should know. After reading some of these I am pretty embarrasssed about what I didnt know...
    hope it is of use to you all.
     
  2. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    on further research on ether....
    seems you cant store it once its opened, because it forms peroxide salts on the surface and thats a nasty explosive combination...and sealed ether containers also form these salts after a year or so.
    mmmm... lucky me, I had a smal can of it here for years. I dont reccomend ether....now it scare the bejesus outta me knowing that.
    I have a special forces medical surgery manual that outlines the proper use of ether, and from what I found elsewhere surfing, the same administration procedures apply for animals as well as humans. Good info to know and keep in the back of your head for a rainy day, but I think I will pass on keeping it around. i'm not fond of hights.... (boom).
    Not to mention, it is a "watched" chemical... the DEA watches who buys ether and where it is delivered. sems its a main chemical in making crack and methamphetamine. So the UPS guy wont be bringing me any this year.
     

  3. Little Quacker in OR

    Little Quacker in OR Well-Known Member

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    :) You can store ether like the doc's do, in the frig. However, if you do this everything in that fridg will absorb the stuff and tastes terrible! I made the mistake of storing an apple in the fridge at work and yuk! We use ether to remove tape from hair and fur. Works great. Also, if you spray ether on tape before putting it on...the critter will NEVER get it off until you remove it. It also evaporates quickly..so for the average person it's just not practical to keep around except for the aerosol stuff used to start an engine. LQ
     
  4. I use to work in a lab and I can tell you a little about both ether and carbon monoxide (CO). Either is very dangerous. It used to be sold in a liquid form in a metal can. People used to use it as an anesthetic. Some of the old cans are still kicking around old farmhouses. In the liquid form, ether can and will explode. Do not store ether in a refrigerator unless the refrigerator is rated for containing explosive materials. No homeowner model that I am aware of will be certified for explosive material. If the ether ever leaked out, the electric motor that powers the refrigerators compressor could cause it to explode.

    Carbon Monoxide (CO) is very, very dangerous. On a scale of 1 to 10 you can give it a 16! In its pure form CO is an odorless, tasteless gas and it is highly flammable (ever hear of a producer gas engine). Do not fool around with carbon monoxide or you will be euthanizing yourself! I seriously doubt any gas supplier would have on hand or release a cylinder of carbon monoxide (CO) to a homeowner. You are probably confusing carbon monoxide with carbon dioxide (C02). A cylinder of CO2 could be purchased (rented) at any welding shop. C02 is routinely used as euthanasia on small animals. Place in bag, fill bag with gas, done. Would not recommend it be used on anything bigger than a rabbit. If you are squeamish about the gun call the vet and they will use the barbiturates.
     
  5. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    your right-o... I was mistaken on the CO, but I have seen bottles of CO AND CO2 where I buy welding supplies. I will ask next time I am there what they use it for. I had to really dig for any reference or warning of its explosive properties BUT you are correct...
    http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/c/carbon_monoxide.htm

    this whole site is really informative on the properties of chemicals in general
    http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/msds_search.html

    the physical action of CO and CO2 are the same pretty much, they cause suffocation. I haddnt thought of it in terms of how it physically killes, but on learning that I'm not sure suffocation is that pleasant a way to go either.

    I think I will stick to bullits, they are instantainous.
    Ive learned a lot looking thins stuff up i hope someone else did too, if nothing else except how easy it can be to make a BIG mistake!

    the last link i posted has a lot of common chemicals i use/ have used all the time, i am going to study the detail specs on each to see what I was handling.

    I wonder what the lethal dose is for animals using phenobarbital... I take that for seizures, and always have a large supply of it on hand.
    anyone have a link to info on leathal does barbituates and various types of animals?
    I know from taking it myself it is deadly if injected and the dose via injection is less than if taken orally. I imagine not many folks here use phenobarb so posting that info probably isnt going to help anyone really. If I find it I will post it and a reputable link just for the sake of information.
    thanks unreg whoever ya are.... keep pointing out my errors!!!
     
  6. I will reiterate carbon monoxide (CO) is very, very dangerous. It has no applications in welding that I am aware of and I don’t think any welding suppliers will have this gas. You cant smell it, you cant see it and by the time you start feeling its effects it can be way to late to stop its actions. It is also highly flammable. CO acts very differently from CO2. CO is a metabolic poison. Without reviewing biochemistry, here is what happens (as I understand it) with CO, CO2 and O2 (oxygen). Your red blood cells pick up oxygen (O2) in your lungs and distribute it to the rest of your body. Inside the body, they drop off O2 and pick up carbon dioxide (CO2) as a waste product and deliver it back to your lungs which you breath out. The affinity or how much red blood cells like to bind to O2 or CO2 is almost the same. The red blood cells can pick up or drop off either. The affinity red blood cells have for CO is much higher. Your red blood cells will pick up CO much easier than they will pick up O2, which is why it is dangerous, even in very small amounts. To make matters worse, once the red blood cells has got a hold of the CO they cannot get rid of it. The CO effectively kills the red blood cells. This cannot be reversed until you generate more red blood cells or get a transfusion. CO2 is not as dangerous, unless there is more CO2 in the environment than O2.
    High doses of CO will probably cause you to pass out long before you knew what was wrong. It would probably make an excellent form of euthanasia if it wasn’t so dangerous. High doses of CO2 would be just like drowning without water. Sodium Phenobarbital acts on the heart and slows it down. In high doses it simply shuts it off. Works real quick and is probably the “easiest” form of euthanasia I have seen, on both the animal and the owner. Unfortunately, you will not be able to get the proper phenobarbital used by Vets for euthanasia. You would need a vet license and you need to keep this stuff under lock and key and account for every drop. You also need to hit a major vein with a large needle (16-18 guage) as the barbital is very thick (like honey). Dosage of #6 blue juice (as I remember) was 10cc per 100lbs body weight.
     
  7. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    you should be registered here so we can put a name to the brains...
    yes as you say CO would make an excellent method of euthinasia.. I researched till I had a headache and found no metion of its explosive properties untill I spacificly looked for the word linked to CO. You are absolutely right. I based my original conclusion on the facts I could find, all said it was dangerous, but they say ether is dangerous also, and I have used ether to euthanize cats. Not startig fluid, we had old cans of medical ether in the barn cabnet. At the time, I did not know how dangerous ether in tins was, so good thing its been gone for years here. (we arent real smart when we are young). I did not know then it forms peroxides with age and becomes a friction explosive. I only used starting fluid once, and it is irritating to their eyes and lungs due to the petrolium, but I observed by the time ithe irritation set in they were pretty much almost out cold. still i will never use iit again for that reason.
    the effect of CO2 I am curious about, when you suffocate from CO2 inhalation is it stressfull like suffocation while drownding or breathing into a paper bag? or does the purity of the bottled CO2 make it work unnoticed by the victim? If you have used CO2 in euthinasia please discribe in some detail how it effects the animal during euthinasia. Do they appear stressed? do the fight to breath?
    yes I have helped vets needle racehorses, it is very important to hit a vein or artery. I was only curious about the lethal dose of phenobarb for the sake of curiousity. I did find info on that drug and the leathal dose via oral doseage, and for animals its very high. It would be impractical to "feed " them that much if you could.
    The last time I had a horse put down I dunno what the vet used but it was a small syringe (@ 30cc) and it dropped a 500 pound pony before he was even done with the injection...
    if you have the money, that is the cleanest, easy way.
    I only address this subject because i like to keep semingly useless and obscure information stacked in the back of my head, you never know when it may come in handy.
    unreg thanks for sharing your brains... keep it up!
     
  8. The person who posted above saying that a refrigerator's electronics can ignite ether fumes and cause a major explosion is absolutely right. I'm a research tech and know a fellow who lost a lot of glassware and windows a few years ago when someone stored etherised rats in his fridge. The fridge was not rated for said use (meaning it was just like your fridge at home-- not well enough insulated or sealed for use with explosive volatiles) and one day when the compressor kicked over it ignited the accumulating fumes. The explosion blew the door off the fridge and bowed the metal chassis out. Nobody got hurt, but they were very lucky nobody was in that lab at the time. Please be very careful using ether or any other chemical.
     
  9. comfortablynumb

    comfortablynumb Well-Known Member

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    "etherised rats"

    you mean rats snuffed with ether are explosive?
    yike.
     
  10. Ether is an excellent solvent. Years ago when it was used as an anesthetic, people used to take weeks to recover from surgery because the ether gets trapped in fat tissue and is released very slowly over a long period of time. Same holds true for ether euthanized rats.