[Shibumi]

Good day to all and happy spring (or still late winter depending on where you are).

I have what has been an attempt at an apple espalier, Belgian fence style, in my yard. I've made a mess of things and am considering options to fix it. My first thought is to top the trees below the first laterals and let the trees push fresh buds that will be easy to train.

I am sure there will be hidden dormant buds on the trunks even though they are hard to identify on the trunk as opposed to smaller limbs. I've included photos of each tree base.

There is already some growth on some of the trees..so I know I will sacrifice some energy that has already moved into the limbs, but the trees are already several years old so there should be plenty of energy still on the root system to push ample growth.

Any ideas from those more experienced would be appreciated.

 

[Orchardsmith]

I think you have lots to work with. Take it from here.
With regular traditional orchards or with espaliered trees, the first thing to do is always to build the structure you want. This takes time and requires much patience. Few branches will start as sprouts that are truly inclined where you want them to go. I like to take sprouts that come out a little below where I want them and carefully train them while they're flexible. If you have two going the same way, keep them both and choose the best one in a year or two or three. Espaliers using horizontal arms are the most common, but these require almost constant attention throughout the year. If you use a fan-style pattern, there isn't so much constant correction. With a fan pattern, you must allow the branches to grow longer than with horizontal arms, and that may call for more support. The area close to the trunk will be needed for the bases of the fan arms in later years. Fruit close to the trunk will not be an option. You might consider planning ahead for higher support for when the branches reach that height and begin to bear.
We always plant orchards for the next generation, and this is true of espaliered trees, too. But espaliered trees are also works of art. Make sure your signature in the corner will make those who see it nod in recognition of someone with skill and patience and a good eye. Do the very best job you can, and that will be good enough. I wish you well.

 

[Shibumi]

I think you have lots to work with. Take it from here.
With regular traditional orchards or with espaliered trees, the first thing to do is always to build the structure you want. This takes time and requires much patience. Few branches will start as sprouts that are truly inclined where you want them to go. I like to take sprouts that come out a little below where I want them and carefully train them while they're flexible. If you have two going the same way, keep them both and choose the best one in a year or two or three. Espaliers using horizontal arms are the most common, but these require almost constant attention throughout the year. If you use a fan-style pattern, there isn't so much constant correction. With a fan pattern, you must allow the branches to grow longer than with horizontal arms, and that may call for more support. The area close to the trunk will be needed for the bases of the fan arms in later years. Fruit close to the trunk will not be an option. You might consider planning ahead for higher support for when the branches reach that height and begin to bear.
We always plant orchards for the next generation, and this is true of espaliered trees, too. But espaliered trees are also works of art. Make sure your signature in the corner will make those who see it nod in recognition of someone with skill and patience and a good eye. Do the very best job you can, and that will be good enough. I wish you well.

Thanks for the reply OrchardSmith.

Since Belgian fence is just one vee per tree (at least those not on an end) it shouldn't really be that difficult to get two opposing shoots at roughly the same height by pinching off a vertical. My obvious issue is I was trying something a bit different and am left with a mess around the first laterals... thus my thought to re-top them and work with whatever sprouts.

I even have been thinking of waiting until next winter, harvesting scionwood from each, and top working each with their own scionwood in order to get a thin, flexible vertical to then pinch and train young laterals from.

I'll do some more thinking and make a decision soon.

Thanks again.
Philip

 

[Orchardsmith]

Your head is working fine and I think you will find a good way. All the best to you.
What if you took the first level horizontal and let some twigs come up on the outer edges, then took the upper level and made a fan? If there's enough room, you can work your own magic.

 

[Shibumi]

Sometimes it's better to have fewer choices and just execute one.

There are 5 trees planted 2 feet apart. Going horizontal won't work so Belgian fence was my choice.

I'll post the results sometime in the future...

Thanks again....

 

[Orchardsmith]

I didn't see that they were planted so close together. That's a factor that really limits your choices. I'd cut the middle three out and extend the line somewhere else. Five trees in eight feet is absurd.

 

[Shibumi]

I didn't see that they were planted so close together. That's a factor that really limits your choices. I'd cut the middle three out and extend the line somewhere else. Five trees in eight feet is absurd.

I'll just call it ambitious!

I need to check which variety is which for pollination purposes if I'm going to eliminate some.

😁

 

[Orchardsmith]

I'll just call it ambitious!

I need to check which variety is which for pollination purposes if I'm going to eliminate some.

😁

Or figure out which variety you need for the remaining two and plant one somewhere nearby. Two trees only eight feet apart are still ridiculous.

 

[Shibumi]

Or figure out which variety you need for the remaining two and plant one somewhere nearby. Two trees only eight feet apart are still ridiculous.

It's not so uncommon for some espalier shapes. Plenty of sites recommend even 18" between dwarfed apples for Belgian fence style.

Anyway I'll figure something out. Don't really have room to put these elsewhere...I already have over a dozen stone and pear on my 1/4 acre residential lot!

🙂

 

[Paumon]

@Shibumi it would be helpful if we could see all of what you are working with, not only close ups. For better perspective, it would be good is you could take another picture standing back a few feet from the trees so all of the trees can been seen in their relationship to each other as an entire group. Also when you post the picture please indicate what compass direction you are facing to take the picture, for perspective to north, east, south and west. Thanks.

.

 

[Shibumi]

@Paumon
Thanks for the reply.

As you can see in the photos, it's a mess. I wasn't even doing a proper Belgian fence form, which should be only two branches for each interior tree at some angle (can vary to fit the frame). As you can see I was trying to have a central leader as well then trying to force laterals at the right spots to vee away from the leader. I was trying to much.

And thus the cluster @#$##.

This is why I think I will top the trees below the first laterals and go with fresh, pliable new growth. I should be able to get the whole form done this year as there should be plenty of stored energy in the roots. These trees have been in the ground for 2+ years and were 2 years old when planted.

See photos and thanks for your attention. This forum rocks.

 

[Shibumi]

 

[Paumon]

@Shibumi thanks for posting the 2 extra photos. Yes, it's a mess but I think it can be fixed without you having to make any drastic cuts that risk killing the trees. I do have some suggestions but it's too late tonight to post them so will get back to you either tomorrow (Monday) or the day after. One quick suggestion I will make now though is that those 4 containers in a row on the ground nearby the apple trees need to be moved at least 20 feet away or more. I don't know what's in them of course but having them so close where they are now puts your apple trees at risk of cross contamination from them from things like diseases, insects and fungal spores that may occur on the contents and soil in those containers.

Are those carrots growing out of the ground near the roots of the tree at the end?

Later.

.

 

[Shibumi]

Yes to carrots.... I grew some at the bases of some of my fruit trees over winter to take up some of the rainfall, and to eat. The ones near the apples were just ones I dropped.

The containers are my neighbors basil plants from last year, but yes I understand.

Here are some individual photos of the base of each tree...the first and last are at each end of the planting.

 

[Shibumi]

I've been having trouble with the forum the last two days..the attachment section is grayed out so I can't post the photos.

 

[Shibumi]

 

[Danaus29]

I've been having trouble with the forum the last two days..the attachment section is grayed out so I can't post the photos.

That happens a lot for me too. If you tap on the little "gear wheel" all the way to the right of that line of icons, the others will be useable.

 

[Paumon]

@Shibumi, I just wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about you. You know the saying "You have to make hay while the sun shines" ? Well figuratively speaking I've been making hay for the past 4 days of welcome sunshine and warm weather (spring suddenly arrived with a big bang) and have been busting my butt transplanting as many as possible of my plants into the ground outside before the rains come again (supposedly) for another 4 days starting tomorrow night. So I will be back with my pruning suggestions once the rain has me cooped up indoors again but in the meantime I'm posting 2 short videos at the link below and commentaries for you that I think will be helpful.

The gardener posting the videos is an accomplished young man in Utah and when you read and watch his easy instructions and demonstrations you will notice that he did something very essential that you have not done but it really, really, really needs to be done first for Belgian espalier - he completed installing the solid construction of the entire permanently attached bamboo lattice work from end to end before he started doing any pruning or training of the little apple trees. You will see how that proceeded in the videos. Completing the permanent lattice work needs to be your number one top priority now before you do anything else with your trees. Seriously. You can put the whole bamboo thing together laying it on the ground and then lift it up into place to attach to the wires and frame.

And you have a GREAT sturdy lumber frame to support everything and build onto. If you are planning on leaving your center-most tree with a central vertical leader with trained laterals at the sides I would suggest that you attach one or two more horizontal wires to the wooden frame near to the top cross beam.

To put up and attach the full size bamboo lattice construction in place on either side of the wires you are going to have to detach the existing bamboo pieces from the wires and remove them from the branches they're on so the trees' branches can all be gently moved back out of the way while you hang the completed lattice up from the cross beam with rope and then attach the lattice to the wires. Then you can re-attach the branches to the bamboo. You'll notice it's a lot easier to visualize and quickly attach the branches to the full lattice once it is solidly up in place.

* A little tip for you, I use cheap plastic hair clips from dollar stores to temporarily clip branches to lattice work and wires. It's easier to move and relocate them and shift them around when making adjustments to the placement of the branches. The hair clips come in a variety of sizes, you'll find them in the hair care & accessories section of dollar stores.

One other thing you will notice this gardener commenting about in the video is that with Belgian espalier it's quite all right for you to have your trees spaced 2 feet apart and it's a common practise by many espalier gardeners to do so, sometimes with even less spacing than two feet. His trees are planted 2.5 feet apart and he has 9 trees in a row.

Video: Belgian Fence Espalier Apple Trees

Video showing how to build the support structure for espalier fruit trees, how to prune dormant apple trees to set them up for espalier training, and how to train them to a lattice shape, Belgian f…

foodscapingutah.org

.

 

[Shibumi]

@Paumon

Dude....thanks for the lengthy reply! I'd imagine 4 days making hay, literally, would make you sleep well at night.....and start developing a nice farmers tan!

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I am about to watch the video. I understand the basics of what you are saying. I do see the obvious benefit of creating and placing the diagonal supports to the wires beforehand as it certainly takes away the need to visualize the future shape and training of the trees.

I can also see I was trying to use too large of an angle on the form ..the video shows a more horizontal set to the training, which makes sense for promotion of fruit.

But I am back to a step I am seriously considering taking before this. Topping the trees now and working from scratch with new growth. As you can tell from the photos the base lateral of each tree is quite a mess. Functionally perhaps it's not a big deal, but a part of the whole espalier thing beyond it's original intend (which was to grow fruit further north than the trees wanted by using the latent heat from south facing walls of buildings to protect them), the form is of importance to me. I am wanting to espalier these trees for the form as much as the fruit, so my inclination is to take my chance and top the trees to get a 'start-over' on the training as a whole.

In south Louisiana it is a very, very long growing season. The roots have enough mass to easily come close to or even finish the whole form in this one season.

Thus my posts here. Sometimes we just want to hear someone who doesn't reside in our own heads say "yes, go for it!".

FYI, we just had a very late freeze (27°)...perhaps the latest legit freeze in this area in decades. My stone fruit trees has just finished bloom, so I am still waiting to see if I lost all of the potential fruit. I did cover them but........the espalier work may mitigate ease my heartache at losing fruit....and perhaps some young grafts as well.

Thanks again
Philip

 

[Paumon]

..... But I am back to a step I am seriously considering taking before this. Topping the trees now and working from scratch with new growth. As you can tell from the photos the base lateral of each tree is quite a mess. Functionally perhaps it's not a big deal, but a part of the whole espalier thing beyond it's original intend (which was to grow fruit further north than the trees wanted by using the latent heat from south facing walls of buildings to protect them), the form is of importance to me. I am wanting to espalier these trees for the form as much as the fruit, so my inclination is to take my chance and top the trees to get a 'start-over' on the training as a whole......

....... Thus my posts here. Sometimes we just want to hear someone who doesn't reside in our own heads say "yes, go for it!".

Yes, go for it!

I completely understand where you're coming from and when your instinct is telling you so strongly that you need to start over again you should go with your instinct. Good luck and I'm wishing you much success with your next go around.

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