Doe IS SICK after all

Discussion in 'Goats' started by quinn, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Hello,

    I hope some of you remember me from a few days ago. I am the one who had the pregnant doe who wouldn't eat her grain ration, then when I left it out for her all night, I returned the next morning to find she had eaten.

    Well, as of last night, I am certain she has pregnancy toxemia. She is completly off her grain, and today she wouldn't even eat her alphalpha. I gave her 8 oz of propylene glycol this morning and this evening, and I'm going to repeat the process tomorrow. Also, we are going to call the vet.

    I'd like to hear from some of you who are in the know about this kind of thing- Will Rosie get better? She isn't down, and she can stand up. She's just not eating and you can tell she isn't herself. The skin around her eyes is pale. She just looks so pitiful, and I feel so bad.

    How long does the propylene glycol take to work? Is there a chance it wont' work?

    Angela
     
  2. LuckyGRanch

    LuckyGRanch Well-Known Member

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    Polk Co Wisconsin
    When was the last time you wormed and with what? Pale eyelids, gums, etc really sounds like a BAD case of worms (though I didn't see your previous post). In the end stages, the worms have made them so anemic and weak that they will go off feed and die. Since you're calling the vet, have them do a fecal.

    How far along is her pregnancy. If she's beyond 60 days, I would strongly recommend a Valbazen or Ivermec PLUS. Be careful with your dosages as both can cause liver damage. The "Plus" is what will go after lung worms and flukes.

    If she's not beyond 60 days and is very wormy, if she were my goat I would take the risk and use one of the above wormers anyway. In the state she's in (assuming worms) she'll likely survive a full term pregnancy anyway. Her body may abort in an effort to preserve itself or...you could lose her as well.

    If she is anemic she is going to need Red Cell, Geritol, or other such treatments with lots of iron.

    Do call your vet. Cross your fingers that they really "KNOW" goats and aren't just running to their reference books after you call.

    Good Luck and please keep us posted.
     

  3. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Thanks for the post back, Lucky. The vet comes today in two hours. I sure will mention the worm thing to him. I will get on here as soon as he leaves and tell how it goes.

    Angela
     
  4. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Hi All,

    I am here to report back on Rosie. I hope that in the future when people do a search on this, they'll see my post and learn something from it.

    The vet came today, in fact he is the owner/vet of the clinic we use here in the Springs. He really knows his goats! He did a physical on Rosie, and said she looked good, sounded good. Then, to be sure, he did a blood test to check her electrolytes and Calcium levels. The verdict was that Rosie is boarder line Milk Fever. She is just "inches" away from not having enough calcium for her own body, due to it all going to those with growing bones inside her! Rosie gets plenty of alphalpha hay, plenty of gain. I don't know how we got to where we are, but I will in the future always check on these things by having the vet out occasionally. I can afford to do this, because I'm not a big rancher-just have 5 goats who almost NEVER get sick.

    To make a long story longer, the vet told us to put molasses in Rosies warm water, and to keep an eye on her. He said that, at this point, it wouldn't be wise to give her an injection of Calcium or anything like it, because depending on how close she is to kidding, it could hurt her. This is because, lets just say you give her the Calcium now and she is about to kid within the week. Her body would use up that Calcium rather quickly, then after kidding she would definitly go into a case of milk fever, and that wouldn't be good either.

    SO... Since everything is normal now, her electrolytes, body weight, respritory rate, etc., and the only thing wrong is a boarderline case of Calcium deficiency, we will do nothing but keep our eye on her to see if she developes symptoms such as muscle spasms or weakness in the hind quarters. Believe me, I'm keeping my eye on this girl.

    Angela
     
  5. Absolute nonsense! Your doe has hypocalcemia, and if you don't get her calcium reserves up she will die and her kids with her. CMPK can be given orally. Propolyn Glycol or sugars are fine for keeping a non eating does energy level up, but goats rarely if ever get ketosis or pregnancy toxemia, what they do get is hypocalcemia from not having adequate stores of calcium in their system, late pregnancy when she is supposed to be making colostrum and growing very fast growing kids.

    Saanendoah.com has Sue Reith's articles up on hypocalcemia. Get the CMPK and give it and the Propolyn Glycol or Nutra drench exactly like Sue says. After this is over you will want to watch her for true milkfever, and be offering her calcium rich alfalfa or alfalfa pellets. Then print out the hypocalcemia information and give it to your challenged vet.
     
  6. NRS Farm

    NRS Farm Well-Known Member

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    In order to avoid confusion...I agree with unregistered about giving the doe calcium. I did not write unregistered's comments. I refer you back to my original comments a few days ago in your previous thread:

    As I undestand it...the ketosis is caused by not getting enough Calcium. The goat backs off the grain because she is trying to increase her Calcium to Phosphorous ratio. The grain normally is higher in Phosphorous. She needs a 2:1 ratio of Ca to P. The Alfalfa is high in Calcium. So she is eating the hay for the calcium but refusing or backing off from the grain to lower the Phosphorous. But that also lowers her sugar or energy levels. Supplementing her with a sugar source will bring back the energy level but will not help on the calcium level. She therefore needs...in my opinion, some calcium along with the sugar. Is she getting any mineral mix (preferably 2:1 Calcium)? How much alfalfa hay is she getting? One source of calcium would be tums or something similar. IF she were mine I would give the sugar (however you wish to give it...cookies...nutridrench...gycol...etc.) but be sure she is getting calcium as well. Here is a reference link that I go by:

    http://www.saanendoah.com/ketosis.html

    Then check out:

    http://www.saanendoah.com/hypoca.html


    =================

    I still stand by my comments if the doe were mine would offer her crushed up tums at the very least. My thoughts are that if you do not give your doe calcium (I agree it should not be a one time shot or IV as your vet stated) each day as described by Sue Reith in the hypocalcemia article above you will have a doe with milk fever after she kids. But that is just my opinion and I most assuredly am not a vet.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.
     
  7. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the terrific input and morale support!

    Rosie is totally getting her energy back up, thank goodness for mollases. Also, she is eating plenty of alphalpha, for which I am thankful. I don't want to give her too much Ca, as I understand this can cause a multitude of problems, as can not having enough. Since she is boarder line Ca deficient, I don't want to give her extra calcium while she is still eating her alphalpha, as that could be a problem. What I'm going to do is start her on alphalpha treats and keep my eye on her. She isn't in a debilitated state, and were it not for me "knowing my goat" I'd not even think anything was worng. That said, I understand how chancy this situation is, and am keeping my eye on all my options. I'm calling my vet supply place today to see if they carry oral CMPK.

    I'll keep you posted. Feel free to give me advice.
    ANgela
     
  8. Not the same unregistered person BTW

    Is the grain you are feeding especially formulated for goats? Do you offer free choice baking soda, and loose mineral salts? Not a lick but granular comes in a 50lb bag and lasts a long time!

    My grain is specifically formulated for goats....$8 a 50lb bag but no feed issues/deficiencies in almost 4 years. Extra money is worth the good health.

    My feed is Nutrena Premium goat feed...

    17% crude protein
    3% crude fat
    12% crude fiber
    Calcium min. 0.6 max 1.1%
    phosphorus min0.5%
    Salt min. 0.7 max 1.1%
    Copper min. 20ppm max 35ppm
    selenium min. 0.3ppm
    vitamin A min. 6800 iu/lb

    Pregnant does get 1/4 to 1/2 a day and our hay is 21% (excellent)

    I also give lots of vegie fruit scraps and cut cedar and evergreens for them. I also give chewable vitamins (flintstones) once a week.

    I also feed milk back to my does if they will drink it. Not all of them like it but some do. I guess the ones that do might be craving the calcium.
    Just some ideas for you. And remember being deficient in just one trace mineral can lead to secondary problems. If you are anemic and your blood has a low iron binding capacity you can take iron pills by the handful and see no improvement.

    Anyway I hope your girl improves and recovers nicely!
     
  9. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've also had goats do this occassionally, late pregnancy like that.
    One day they are eating great and everything seems fine, then they are off feed and I'm frantic. I'm glad to hear that she is eating her alfalfa and drinking the water. You may be able to gradually get her back on a little feed. I will confess to splurging and buying mine the more expensive Purina sweet feed when they get like this, and gradually adding their normal pellets back into the mix. Are you keeping up the propeline glycol?
    mary
     
  10. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Hey Guys!

    I use Purina Goat Chow, and feed the goat mineral mix and baking soda.

    I went out and bought some CMPK, oral today. Do I really need to give this as long as she isn't down?

    If so, how much do I know to give and how often?

    HELP!!!

    Angela
     
  11. NRS Farm

    NRS Farm Well-Known Member

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    Here is the dosing for CMPK as described by Sue Reith in her hypocalcemia article. In your case you are following the oral dosing BUT PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE at the Saanendoah site as well. There is a lot of good info in the article especially for prevention in the future. Sue does not wish for anyone to just copy portions of her articles. In this case I hope she will understand.

    http://www.saanendoah.com/hypoca.html


    "Now let’s turn to the primary problem, hypocalcemia. The fact is, we all need calcium for muscle tone. The heart is a muscle, and to keep it beating right the doe has to get enough calcium. So as soon as she’s been treated to prevent ketosis, start her on replacement therapy to bring her calcium level back up to normal. If you’re having a vet help you with the repair process he may want to use Calcium gluconate for that. But CMPK will do a better job, because while calcium gluconate is just calcium, CMPK also has magnesium, phosphorus, and potassium in it, and they all work as a team to make the calcium available faster and more efficiently to the body, speeding up her recovery. Also, there’s a risk in using calcium gluconate by itself to treat hypocalcemia. “Too much of a good thing” can be harmful, and giving it too fast or in too big a dose will make her heart beat too rapidly, which could cause heart failure. When CMPK is used instead, the potassium in it slows down the heart rate, balancing out the calcium so the heartbeat will stay normal as the calcium gets returned to her system. Important! Warm CMPK to body temp before injecting it!

    CMPK injectable is given sub-cutaneously (just below the skin) in the area between the last rib and the pelvis, at the rate of 30cc SQ, about every 2 hours until the calcium the doe needs has been replaced. We dose this way so we can continuously watch for improvement and easily tell when her system has returned to normal. To check her progress, we compare her heart rate to that of a normal doe (70 - 80 beats per minute). At the beginning of the hypocalcemic doe’s treatment her heart rate will be slower than that of the normal doe because she’s so calcium deficient. When her heart rate is back up to the same speed as that of the normal doe, and she appears bright and alert and wants to eat again, things are going well. However, giving your hypocalcemic doe just a single dose, or a few doses, of the CMPK will ONLY balance her calcium level FOR THE MOMENT, but as those babies continue to grow they’ll drain more and more calcium from her, so after her heart rate’s back up to normal it’s very important to keep giving her DAILY MAINTENANCE DOSES OF ~ 30cc (1oz) of CMPK UNTIL SHE FRESHENS. If you see signs that she’s weakening again any time before then you’ll have to increase the dose, but only temporarily, until she’s OK once more.

    In my view the injectable form of CMPK is the best choice for treatment of the debilitated doe, because with it she can be dosed accurately, without a struggle. The problem is that while this form is the easiest to use and relatively inexpensive (about $4/1000ml in the catalogs), it requires a veterinary prescription. The down side of this is that most veterinarians don’t seem to know anything about hypocalcemia, nor understand why your doe needs continued doses of calcium. So being somewhat cautious they will only want to prescribe or provide a single dose, or perhaps two. That’s like trying to fix a leaking dam by putting your finger in the hole. All the more reason why you might want to share this article with your veterinarian of choice.

    (Editor’s note: Many owners report their veterinarians refuse to even read this information. In that case, to save the life of your doe I urge you to go online fast and order the oral CMPK gel from a livestock catalog. The gel, a non-Rx item readily obtained OTC and in catalogs, is a paste, and once placed in the doe's mouth will sit there until swallowed. One tube of 400gm (~14 oz) CMPK gel (~ $4) will provide a hypocalcemic doe with about fourteen 30cc doses. If unable to find that, order the oral liquid CMPK or MFO instead, as they will both work well, dosed with a 35cc syringe. An udder canula attached to it will turn it into an oral dosing syringe. One word of caution: When using the oral liquid CMPK, it’s important to dispense no more than one swallow at a time to keep the doe from choking, which could lead to aspiration pneumonia. Either of these products can be shipped to you by next-day-air. If you need information about online catalogs contact me at suereith@msn.com.)

    Once you get her calcium level back to normal and she starts eating again, your doe will probably still refuse grain for a while. Don’t worry, because she’s still instinctively trying to fix her calcium-deficient condition, and she’s the best judge of that. She’ll want to eat it again soon, and when she does it’s wise to give her just a small amount of it at each feeding. If she’s not eager at first to eat her hay again either (grass is OK to start with if that's what you have available, but alfalfa or alfalfa pellets would be a really good choice now) it’d be a good idea to bring her some of her favorite browse... I feed Salal and wild huckleberry up here in the Northwest, both of which stay green all winter... In your area there must be something yummy, and non-toxic of course. If you don't know her favorite, offer her a variety and let her choose."
     
  12. quinn

    quinn Member

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    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to post back and give a great big THANK YOU to all who informed me about CMPK. My Rosie is now on daily doses of 30cc, and is once more eating her hay. She hasn't gone back to grain yet, but is drinking plenty of rich molasses water (I call it her morning and evening coffee, LOL!) If it wern't for all of you on this board, my goat would probably be dying right now, no kidding, and certainly NO THANKS TO THE VET who charged me 120 dollars to come out and check her pulse! (it feels good to rant to those who understand :) )

    Anyways, just wanted to say thanks!

    Angela