doe aborted

Discussion in 'Goats' started by okiemom, Sep 17, 2004.

  1. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering how to prevent abortions due to being butted. The girls are only penned when being feed or needing their shots. Last year 3 does aborted and this year 1 has aborted. This seems like such a waste.

    I give them their CD/T, Worm w/ Cydectin, Vaccinate for Pasturella, and give them feed w/ a coccidiastat. I have 35 goats on 50 ac. the pen they are feed in is around 100 x 40. We even have several different feed stations to try to minimize competition.

    I am fairly certain the abortions are due to butting, but how do I prevent this? Anyone else have this problem? Could it be something else? Thanks Katharine
     
  2. Laura Workman

    Laura Workman (formerly Laura Jensen) Supporter

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    On those occasions when I have goats butting one another, I put in some strategically placed obstacles so those doing the butting can't get a really good run at their victims. In my smaller areas, two by four studs elevated to about 18 inches (think short, very stable saw horses) or cinder blocks work well. Having to go over or around these things breaks the momentum of the charging goat.
     

  3. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Are these late term abortions? Other than the CD&T and pasturella vaccinations, do your goats really need to be wormed in late pregnancy? A fecal sample would certainly be cheaper than wormer in a large herd, or a lost kidding. Rarely do we have to worm during pregnancy. Also on your pasturella vaccination, which one are you using? Make sure it is one used in healthy cattle, not one used for the illness itself.

    This time around fecal before worming prekidding, do the worming post kidding, when it is really the most necessary unless the fecal shows you have to worm the pen.

    In large herds, you are going to have some early abortions, usually simply blamed on a doe recylcing being missed by the buck, rarely anything but a wet tail is seen, and a small percentage of late term abortions or early kiddings with unviable kids.

    Replacing a mean herdboss, isn't necessarily the answer if she is then replaced by a meaner one, we don't have alot of control over this. I did dehorn agressive does, in my meat goat herd, it worked really well, not wanting to loose the agressive does, they where always the best does, heaviest milkers, they simply demand more food and take it from the does lower in the pecking order. Good luck with this. Vicki
     
  4. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replys.

    There are trees in the pen that I thought would help, but really it seems like they just trap the doe when the aggressor charges :no: . All our does came to us w/ horns so we decided to let the kids have horns so there was no differences. they are boer/meat x's so disbudding is not common.

    the abortions last year were late term. the kid was formed but had no hair. Twins, I believe , had hair and may have been more of a stillborn (twins).

    This year, the kid was not found but the bloody doe and birth spot was found. Great Pyr. to protect goats would not let a coyote near.

    On the worming, Yes I had a fecal done. and yes they really needed to be wormed, said the vet :( . I have been battling worms like crazy. I worm every 6-8 wks and still have a problem even changing wormers and with a vets help. I admit though, we do not have the capacity to rotate the pastures yet(35 goats on 50 ac.). That will be coming soon :D . I do believe this would be a great help to reduce worm load.I am tired of white/blue gums and bottle jaw.

    I do like my vet but their office says that exact worm counts are not accurate and I should not worry about eggs/gram. Whats up with that? What kind of info should I expect from a fecal? What will/should a fecal tell me?

    The pasturella vaccine is for healthy cows. Case bac One true shot I believe is the name. What else could cause abortions? Thanks for the info. K
     
  5. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Dealing with the copper defficiency in our area, really helped our worm burdens. We went from having to worm monthly during the summer, to not one worming here from May on, we will be worming next week prebreeding.

    A fecal count should tell you how many eggs per gram (counted on a chambered slide) what kind of eggs, and when you hear the dreaded word (hemoncous) you know you have the bloodsuckers that are causing your bottle jaw. The amount of damage done to the doe when she finally shows bottle jaw is huge. Without quality nursing the doe takes a very long time to build her blood supply back, even when the symptoms of bottle jaw goes away. The bottle jaw is caused by edema, which is caused by anemia, which is caused by the worms sucking her of her blood supply. Why even after you worm they take awhile to bounce back.

    Some of my original bloodlines come from OK. Near Pryor and west of there. When purchasing animals from your area and from near Shreevport, they are copper bolused, it simply takes them too long to come around by just the use of minerals and our grainmix that since it is labeled for horses, gives us a higher amount of copper.

    Living on an iron ore hill, copper is more of an issue for us.

    When you look at normally healthy animals having problems like this you always turn to nutrition first. An animal with defficency is under nutritional stress, and we all know how badly goats react to stress.

    A good quality cattle loose mineral, feed free choice in covered containers. If you are doing this, you may want to use your next older goat you need to put down to send in a section of the liver for biopsy, with having Langston in your state I would send it there, looking for highnormal on the reading. I would be sending a fecal sample into them also, finding out what worm you are dealing with that is causing you these problems and worming for them. Move from Ivermectin to Cydectin if you are having to worm this often, there is widespread resistance to Ivermectin. Use DE or herbal remedies after you have things under control.

    Late term abortions are common in large herds, really early births of unviable kids, hairless, or haired and unbreathing. Toxoplasmosis, Qfever, Chlymidia, it may be worth it if you have this problem yearly to send a placenta in and have it examined.

    The symptoms of copper defficency besides higher than normal worm burdens include adult males with bald tail tips, sparse hair coats, black animals showing a tinge of red and a bad perm look to their hair in the sun, thicker than normal placentas which unless helped, some kids can not get out of, thick amniotic fluid, tinged the color of iodine, overgrowth of hooves (when not blamed on the overuse of protein in the diet) and mastitis, usually staph. Vicki
     
  6. Hank - Narita

    Hank - Narita Well-Known Member

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    Vicki, where do you get the copper boluses? Our goat's previous owner gave the shot but we don't want to do that. We want to get cattle tags too. Do you have a source for them? We have a big fly problem while milking and also around by DH. He is extremely bothered by them.
     
  7. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Get your directions for using the bolus's on saanendoah.com the guru of copper information. Never herd of giving shots before!

    I get my empty geletain capsules at my healthfood store locally.

    I have my flies licked. I take my old bleach bottles, and cut a slot into them up under the handle. I pour about 3/4 to 1 cup of golden malrin into this slot, and then some water. I hang this up in the barn, no more drips from the old bullets we used to make with socks. Every week I add more water so the golden malrin stays wetish. I may have 5 flies in my barn at the most, does nothing for nats :)

    You can't use flytags on goats because they chew on them.

    The first of next year aim for a cleaner place. Get the bedding out of the barn as early as you can, rake the pens and keep the manure up, keep your manure piles (compost piles) away from the barns, this is the only thing in my opinion :worship: that DE is good for, in the goat manure, after the goats have eaten it, fly larve can not be layed in manure with DE in it and survive. Sprinkled over the manure piles also. Get some hens to keep the spilt grain up, and also they scratch up wet areas. (Don't let the hens out of their henhouse until after they are laying, it's the only way to insure they go home to roost, lay, then let them out in the afternoon after chores) Get the molassas out of your grain, move to an allgrain. Put your Golden Malrin bleach jugs up first thing in the spring. Your flies will be gone. I also have a very powerful fan (husband made it out of a large piece of duct work), it blows directly on me and the goats as I milk, nothing can fly around me during milking. BEWARE...if you have June Bugs, my fan blows them around like little leathal weapons....I hate June Bugs! Vicki
     
  8. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    I am giving the goats the highest copper loose mineral I can find. i believe the grain also has copper in it as well. I don't have the info in front of me at the moment.

    Will you please clone yourself and send you up to me for advice :haha: :D ;) ?

    Is there another way to add copper besides a bolus? Can you OD on copper from a bolus and copper in the minerals? Is there a liquid copper(shot or top dressing of feed)? Can I find out if the does are copper diffecient in a blood test?

    How often to you worm? What should I accept as normal?

    I had them tested for Selium defficiency and their blood test said they were in the normal range. Could they still need a Bo-Se shot? Could this contribute to the mineral defiencies? I don't want to OD them on Selinium. Thanks, Kathariene