dishonest breeders

Discussion in 'Goats' started by okiemom, Oct 4, 2005.

  1. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    I need to vent.


    My FIL and I went to a breeder and bought 3 boer does to start a registered line. Mainly we sell for meat but we wanted to see if papered goats would be able to bring more to our breeding program. Anyway, we go to this womans house and she has a nice set up. Makes ours look shabby :stars: . the goats live better than we do. She was very knoledgeable and had good records. She was very patient and happy to show us around. It looked like she ran a tight ship and was going to be a very reputable seller. We bought the 3 does and she wrote a bill of sale and added that she would be sending the registaration papers and service memo ( a doe was supposed to be breed). She was keeping the registration papers to register the kids and would send them soon. I have this in writing. I even have the does registration #'s. I tried looking them up and found nothing.


    I have called and called w/ no response. I did get her once and she said she had been sick and papers would come soon. this was in june of '04. I have tried to be patient. Now I think I have jacka** written on my forhead. :stars: .

    Mybe $600+ is not a big deal to some but I feel bad for my FIL as he was really wanting some good goats. To top it off the one that was to be bred wasn't and teh other hasn't breed in this whole time. Can we say sterile?

    i am so mad. I have tried to be nice and now I am forced to be a witch. Now i am wondering about statue of limitations. It has been a year. Is it too long to file small claimes? Is it worth it? I wonder if she has done this to others? I found out she is still in the goat business and has been buying expensive goats.


    I want others to know about her bad business practices but don't want it too look like a smear campaign. How can people last in business being untrue?

    Any ideas? Ever happen to you? Thanks for letting me vent and rant :soap: :bash: :bash: . Katharine
     
  2. moosemaniac

    moosemaniac Well-Known Member

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    Wow, what a horror story. Luckily, not all breeders are like that. I have some friends locally with meat breeds, registered, and they would bend over backwards to maintain a good reputation.
    As for small claims court, I don't know about your area, but I think a phone call to a district magistrate would be well worth it. The statute is two years in some places. Good luck to you!

    Ruth
     

  3. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    The same thing happened to me, also in June '04. I purchased two milking Lamanchas and a buckling from a good line. One doe and the buckling were supposed to be registered and the papers were forethcoming. The other doe was 1/4 Boer and cannot be registered, of course, or graded up. The woman is a local and well-known in the local dairy club and i trusted her. I even worked at her dairy while she was ill. Well she kept being "ill" or this excuse or that excuse. Well call after call and no results. I had bred the goats and had two doelings that would have been registerable at this point. Now she informs a mutual friend that she has finally caught up on her paper work and the papers are ready. My goats from her are tatooed and I am familiar with her herd. I still do not have papers in hand but am anticipating them (maybe). These goats are of very good quality in my opinion and if I don't get the papers, i will begin an upgrading program, they are that good. To be honest, I prayed about, then just released my anger. I'll keep yall posted on the outcome....Diane
     
  4. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I don't know about the boer associations, but if someone like that rips you off in ADGA you have avenues to not only complain about the breeder, but to also go around them to get your paperwork. I am on the Trade and Arbitration committee, and luckily there isn't alot of it, but we do very good work.

    There is no reason to pay anything if they do not have the paperwork in hand. At the very least there should be an application of registry that they can fill out. In ADGA you have legal right to paperwork with a filled out bill of sale.

    As a breeder fills out the bill of sale, make sure the buck and the doe (dam and sire) are owned by (it says on the bottom of the paperwork, owned by...if it doesn't say there name than ask for a signed service memo from the person it does say owned by...if they can't produce this than don't buy the goat. If they can't produce paperwork, ADGA blue or brown, or a white application of regsitry, DON"T pay for the goat until you get the papers! It's the same with claims of being clean of CAE or CL, if you don't see paperwork stating negative you don't have ANYTHING!

    A clean, tidy place is wonderful, being knowledgeable is wonderful, but quit rewarding breeders with your money when they don't follow common everyday practices on their farms. And selling regsitered stock without paperwork is unethical. Selling bred does for more money when she is either not springing or confirmed bred, is unethical. A doe who has only been in with a buck or covered should not sell for more than an unbred doe because you have no idea if she is bred. Selling diseased stock without telling the new owner that she is positive, or has never been hand milked when they are there to buy a family milker, or buying a pet for their kid and you have never gotten a hand on that wild kid before (telling them that wild horned creature will tame down in no time), not telling the new owner of previous mastitis, is unethical.

    Buyer beware in goats is the understatement of the year! Vicki
     
  5. okgoatgal2

    okgoatgal2 Well-Known Member

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    The other doe was 1/4 Boer and cannot be registered, of course, or graded up.

    someone will i'm sure correct me if i'm wrong, but if she has the appearance of a lamancha, she can be recorded as native on appearance-and if the sire or dam is a lamancha, registered, she can be registered as a grade, sire (or dam) unknown, unless things are not as i understand them.

    i have a purebred nubian that the papers of the sire were NEVER filled out correctly on (i will NEVER do business with her again) and so i cannot get papers on 2 yrs of my goats-as purebred nubians, however, i will be recording her as NOA (and the woman who bought my herd will be doing the same with the others) i have a lamancha i will be recording as NOA, she's 3/4 nubian, but has the appearance of a lamancha. she'll be bred to a lamancha buck, and i'll breed her up to that. the nubian will be bred up to american nubian. really stinks that an unethical lazy person cost me purebred papers on a dozen goats.
     
  6. dosthouhavemilk

    dosthouhavemilk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is not ethical to try and register a doe with ADGA if she has a meat breed in her.
    I have two 3/4 Nubian, 1/4 Boers, that look Nubian, but if I were to try and identify or register my dairy goats they wouldn't be included. Isn't stopping me from breeding them to a Nubian buck and possibly selling offspring as family does, but I am very strict with documenting the goat's breeding.
     
  7. mammawof3

    mammawof3 Well-Known Member

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    We are going through the same thing. Bought a fullblood buck in April,with promise,in writing of registration papers-"as soon as he got them"..from a repitable? breeder-now, i should have known better-but really thought reputations MEANT something to people-especially when they advertise to sell too 4-H kids ect.! We recieved 2 seperate e-mails with the same promise, after telling him that our reg. does were now bred and wanted to be able to reg. the kids..Now we have kids on the ground that we CAN'T reg.,because the breeder won't even accknowledge us now-we have kept trying to get ANY info. on the "where abouts" of the "supposed" reg. papers!..unless the man has died, or become an invalid since his last "promise" for the papers, he really has no buisness BEING in buisness, if this is how he handles his obligations! :stars:
     
  8. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    Is there no site to post about bad sellers like on ebay and other selling lists? If word got around not to buy from bad sellers they would straighten up.

    I am wondering if any of the meat/show goat associations are thinking about promoting good breeders.

    I called the Pres. of the Ok. boer goat assoc. He was out of town but his wife call me after getting my message and called me back. She did not want me to think they were blowing me off. I thought that was very nice and professional.

    I explained to her what happed and she said she would help me as a fellow goat breeder but not "officially" through teh OBGA. She really was glad I told her that a member was not being true and she would find out more info for me. She had been burned before and wanted to see if anything could be done to reduce fraud. She didn't want fraud turning off other members or future breeders.

    The world is too small now to get away w/ bad practices. i hope there will be a way to reward good sellers and reject crummy ones. I am sorry to hear about everyone's similar problems. I wish I could say it was just us. Maybe if everyone who gets burned fights we can eliminate some of the headachs out there.
     
  9. SherrieC

    SherrieC Well-Known Member

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    You can not grade up a goat to something unless it's totally dairy goat, No meat breeds, no pygmys, no dwarf blood. I really got the once over one year in f 4-h back when boers were big, but not yet in our area, My kids took two wethers out of our saanen/nubian bred to a nubian buck, and one of them was white like mama with a red head, dairy as all get up but BOER colored. Boy oh boy what an argument. I'm as Honest & naive as the day is long.. Gets me in trouble alll the time
     
  10. Goat Freak

    Goat Freak Slave To Many Animals

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    When we bought our Boers we were going to get the guys whole herd, he had arthritus and could not handle goats anymore, we were supooidly getting all purebred goats, 1 large male, 5 breedable females, 2 young bucks, and two doelings. Two of the babies supposidly belonged to the herd queen, and the other two suposidly had a red father and were the babies of another one of the does. Well he was going to give us the paperwork for the babies, took him forever to get two done and we are still waiting for the other one(one of the boys died of urinary calculi). When we got the paper work for the two, turns out hat they were not purebred, they were 94% Boer, and that the herd queen was NOT their mother! We would not be so mad if it were not for the fact that he lied to our faces, he clearly thought we were stupid because he put hte true percentage on the paperwork, and we know he knew he was lying because he only had a herd of ten goats so it would be kinda hard to forget the percentages of your goats! As soon as we get the paper work for our little girl we will no longer do business with him. By the way on a nicer note, we recently bought a red boer billy, who has wonderful genetics, from a wonderful woman in Georgia, her website is "Three Bucks" I believe, she was so nice, forms for paper work, let us see the parents, see the brother, everything.
     
  11. Suemo

    Suemo Well-Known Member

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    We answered an ad for show goats. We bought several and took the very nice elderly lady at her word. You know that ADGA was very behind there for a while so wwe accepted that the papers were at ADGA and would soon be forthcoming. 3 months no papers, no reply to letters , telephone has been disconnected but they have a cell phone. We have tried to look these does up on ADGA gentics but they don't appear to be there. So what is the next step?
     
  12. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    There is a specific clause is the American Dairy Goat Association (ADGA) rules that states that when you are grading up goats, any goat with Boer, Spanish, Mohair, (and maybe something else non-dairy) is excluded.

    You can have a mixture of dairy goat breeds and grade up to purebred, but if there is Boer blood in your doe, forget it. My 1/4 Boer, Lamancha looks essentially purebred and milks like a true heavy duty dairy goat. I bred her to a LaMancha buck. Her kids, 1/8 Boer had cookie ears and look totally purebred. I was horrified that they would end up in the hands of someone who would grade them up thinking they were purebred, especially with the heavy milking. One kid i wethered and will butcher. The doeling will be bred to my Boer buck as well as the original 1/4 blood doe from now on. This LaMancha look-a-like business will stop here on my farm. These two part Boer ladies will now be milkers that just produce meat babies!
     
  13. Sher

    Sher Well-Known Member

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    Really sorry for your troubles .. I have been very lucky I guess. I live in the sticks here and my very first goat was a registered Saanen heavy milker. Grace came WITH papers.

    I bought her from a family that was NOT made of money...but were darned ethical! I went back and bought two more milkers from them. Each time their papers were in my hand when I left the farm with the girls.

    I hate to say it..but I think maybe ..we..as consumers..need to "insist" on things like papers right up front.

    I run a handful of milk does with a boer buck. I am selling bucks as meat and have been fortunate to find someone that takes my does for breeding...no papers.

    Tell your father in law..purebred boers ..here..for us..aren't as good as the 50/50's we get from our milkers. The reason...remember this is purely OUR experience...the kids out of the 100% milking does..by the !00% boer buck..are tremedously bigger at a younger age. My husband says he thinks its because there is sooo much milk for them to drink..versus the boer bag.

    To each his own and every one is looking for something specific to their needs. Me, I am looking for a big kid..young..for meat. I don't do anything with papers...I buy a registered buck, cause I am always tempted (and usually break down) to keep back some does. Therefore I get more out of my young "Registered" bucks on resale. Other than that...I have never had anyone that is looking for meat goats..ask for papers. Its all about the size and weight to them.

    I guess I'm trying to say..it bites to be had..we've all been had at one time or another with one animal or another(me..horses..LOL!!) But hang in there..Use some non papered goats if you have to..just to get kids on the ground to start to recoop your loss. Then..start for you papered animals again if you want..you will be SO much more prepared. There are people out there that just don't want to be honest and play fair..I hate it..but its true. Hope this whole experience does not jade you and your wonderful fatherinlaw.

    God bless ya..and hang in there. Oh..by the way, I WOULD call the boer association..and make some NOISE..you might be surprised at the results..without even having to take her to court. A phone call from the district attorney might "scare" her into action also. I would try for my money back and her taking the animals back..just start from ground zero.
     
  14. 6e

    6e Farm lovin wife Supporter

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    We had a run in with a woman that was a real witch to work with. At first she seemed eager and willing to help us in any way that she could. We were supposed to buy 3 Boer cross does from her. The deal was we were to pick up two of them the following weekend and the 3rd a month later due to the fact that she still had a baby nursing. When I called her the next weekend I set up a time for the next day and asked if I should call before we came and she said no, that was fine, there would be someone there all day. We showed up at the exact time that I said we would and she got so angry at us, yelling at us and cursing that we didn't call first and that most people pick up their animals in the morning. My hubby got very angry also and I was stuck in the middle trying to smooth things over. My husband asked her to just give us our money back and we would be on our way and she wouldn't give us the money or the goats. When my husband threatened to sue her she gave us the goats. But when I called a month later for the third one she yelled and cursed at me on the phone and hung up on me. I was in a total state of shock that someone who was supposed to be "professional" would actually treat someone that way!!! I've sold a lot of critters over the years and I would never dream of treating someone the way she treated us. The sad thing is, she raises a lot of goats and sells quite a few and I wonder how many other people have ended up on the receiving end of her psycotic behavior? I vowed then and there that the most important trait about someone you're planning on dealing with and giving money to is that they be honest and of integrity. It really gave me a bad taste in my mouth for goat people in general. We've bought so many animals and we've never ever been treated like that before. :stars:
     
  15. Goat Freak

    Goat Freak Slave To Many Animals

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    You could always go around ruining what ever reputation she has, if she even has one at this point.
     
  16. okgoatgal2

    okgoatgal2 Well-Known Member

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    see, i knew someone in this group would be more than happy to correct me if i were wrong. i wasn't aware of that clause, b/c i've never had to register that one. thank you for the education.