Disease?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by jwcinpk, Nov 9, 2004.

  1. jwcinpk

    jwcinpk Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to figure out what it is that could be killing my goats. I have lost about 7 over the last year. I have consulted a vet and she has no answers without spending a lot of money. I Have considered a necropsy, but haven't yet because my vet wants me to drive the dead animal to the closest city.
    Until recently I thought the problem was worms, but I worm monthly now and alternate between safegaurd and Ivomec.
    All my goats seem healthy and happy and then one day they are dead. No real symptoms. However the most recent one got the scours one day before death. I have noticed that they have almost always died after being around my horses. I know the horses are not stepping on them. I put the horses in during the day sometimes to help keep the pasture eat down.
    Any ideas what it could be?
     
  2. okiemom

    okiemom Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    I know pasturella pneumonia can killl that quick with very few symptoms. Do you vaccinate your goats? I vaccinate for/with and give:

    CD/T

    Pasturella pneumonia;

    Give tham a coccidiastate (swetlix w/ rumension) Be careful rumension can't be given to horses. Coccidia will make goats more prone to secondary illness exp. babies. I lost almost every baby in my first kid crop because I had no idea what it was. Cost me over $300 in Vet bills. It is devistating.

    Get a FECAL TEST done and worm if needed to correct product and dosage!!!!!!!! ($16-$20)

    Did your goats have a fever? if they did it would be pneumonia if they didn't don't know what it would be. Pasturella can kill w/in 24 hrs. It can be detected by autopsy. Pasturella is found in goats naturally so nasal swabs may not be accurate. Same w/ cocci. It is only bad when numbers get beyond a safe threshold.
     

  3. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Until recently I thought the problem was worms, but I worm monthly now and alternate between safegaurd and Ivomec.
    ........................

    This kind of statement always sends up read flags with me. There is such widespread miss-information, even from vets on worming, this rotating of wormers works well on horses, it is the fastest way to dead goats though. There is alot of resistance to safeguard...a joke in our area is that it's safe alright, safe for the goats and safer for the worms...because it doesn't kill them :) It does work well on tapes, but tapes a rarely a concern in goats, expect in huge numbers in kids. Ivermectin also, especially in those who injected it, and now are trying to use it orally. It simply works poorly on the blood stucking hemoncous. Yes it works well on lungworm and also Tri-strongieds (SP).

    You need to move to cydectin, 1cc per 25 pounds and give it orally. I would do this now and then again in 10 days, then again in 10 days. A vet who has no idea about death isn't going to be really good about taking a fecal to. If you want to take a fecal than send it to Texas A&M or your local lab or university. No state lab wants the whole body for necropsy, they want the liver, the brain and the heart, and will tell you what they need and want. A small sliver of liver etc.

    Do you have a seasoned breeder in your area who can come and look at your stock. Sometimes things as simple as in our area, a low copper level or no minerals out, can cause these huge worm burdens that aren't touched by worming. Or lots of kid deaths or pregnancy problems by not giving Bo-se twice a year. Or not having a good source of calcium out in your dairy goats diet, causing hypocalcemia.

    Death with no other sypmtoms like depression from the fever of pnemonia, or kicking and screaming from enterotoxemia, is likely worms or cocci (death from anemia) or predator. Vicki
     
  4. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    your horses could just be kicking them , that will cause them to die.
     
  5. jwcinpk

    jwcinpk Well-Known Member

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    Don't think it's the horses bothering them. Had some die without horses around them. They just seem to take shorter grass hard. There is plenty to eat just the horses have eaten down to the nubbin what they want. The last fecal that we had done showed some hummonchus, but nothing like what we had before Ivomec and Safeguard. The vet actually recommended Ivomec. I have looked for Cydectin and can't find it locally. I wouldn't think it would be lack of mineral. They get triple trust goat/sheep salt/mineral free choice. Does Cydectin have another name? Or just not popular locally? All I can find is Safeguard for goats and Ivomec.
     
  6. Mrs. Cook

    Mrs. Cook Member

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    What kind of hay and grain are you feeding, and how much? Have you been switching grain, or do they consistently get the same feed? Enterotoxemia causes diarrhea, and they die quickly if untreated. Do you vaccinate for enterotoxemia? Also, sheep mineral contains no copper, and goats need copper in their diet. The worm you are talking about can cause blood loss and anemia, which may likely be the problem. If they are grazing on very short grass that is close to the ground they are probably picking up a worm load, which could be compounded by a copper deficiency. What is their body condition like.... are they thin or well-fleshed? Any problems with their hair coat? Is their skin pliable or taut? Are the mucous membranes of the eyes pink or pale? Where do you live? Some areas of the country have extremely copper deficient soil. Try Cydectin (moxidectin) and a good mineral mix made especially for goats. Pasture rotation may also help. You can get Cydectin from Valley Vet, or other on-line animal supply stores ...... Linda
     
  7. Stacy Adams

    Stacy Adams Well-Known Member

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    JWCINPK, Try www.Jefferslivestock.com they'll have Cydectin under cattle wormers..
    I don't think there's another name for it..
     
  8. jwcinpk

    jwcinpk Well-Known Member

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    I feed a 50 50 mix of corn cluten and ground corn. I have about 30 fb and % boers. Plus they have plenty of weeds, trees, and grass to pick on. I also give the sheep/goat mineral free choice. Which does have copper in it.
    I believe the problem is worms and plan to try cydectin. Also didn't realize that the goats were probably picking up a big burden of worms from the places they graze that the horses have been grazing, i.e. short grass. I don't like much fininshing a completely new paddock for the goats. Hopefully between getting them away from the horses and the cydecting it will correct my problem.
     
  9. Stacy Adams

    Stacy Adams Well-Known Member

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    If it's a mineral mix for sheep AND goats, then there isn't nearly enough copper in it for your goats.. anything labled for sheep and goats is really geared towards sheep.. if it had even half the copper requirement that goats need, it would kill the sheep eating it..
    That said, I bought Purina's Goat Minerals a couple of years ago and my goats wouldn't eat it, and after a year, I threw the other half a bag away 'cause it was starting to turn into a brick.. so now I mix my own. If your wanting a premixed mineral, Tractor Supply sells a Bluebonnet mineral that I know a few people use and they really like it (& so do their goats!) but I thin you realy ought to get away from that sheep/goat stuff.
    There's been some research done in Australia on the correlation between copper vs worms in goats, and they believe that a healthy copper balance will keep worm burdens in check.
     
  10. stellie

    stellie Well-Known Member

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    Very very true. However, depending on the sheep and goat mineral, goats still need it. What she could be dealing with is coccidiosis -- a disease brought on by a species of protozoa called Eimeria.

    http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/AgrEnv/ndd/goat/COCCIDIOSIS.html

    We've had quite a few die unexpectedly on us when we first started. Each had been beyond listless and had scours. We took one to Ivor to be examined as soon as it died. Sure enough, that was our problem -- coccidiosis.

    We also had a horrible time with a new mini-herd that we had gotten from a near-by farm. We were told to worm them with a specific wormer (a cattle wormer, no less) and we lost every single one of them.

    BIG NOTE. NEVER WORM SHEEP AND GOATS WITH THINGS MARKETED FOR OTHER ANIMALS. It will kill them. They are extremely sensitive to certain things -- there are no set cc's to give an itty bitty animal in comparison to a huge bull. Same goes for horse meds. You're just playing russian roulette with your livestock.

    There are not very many products that cater towards goats, as far as wormer is concerned. Ivomec drench for sheep works wonders for worming -- so does Levasole, from reputation, and Tramisol, from experience.

    Ivomec is safe for use in pregnant does/ewes, Levasole/Tramisol is not.

    There is also a wormer pellet specially made for goats, however I don't seem to be able to find it at the moment. If you have a Southern States, check with them.

    Hope this helps.
     
  11. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    BIG NOTE. NEVER WORM SHEEP AND GOATS WITH THINGS MARKETED FOR OTHER ANIMALS.
    ...................................

    You can only do what you are comfortable with, but I can tell you that all my wormers I use are for cattle use and I use no sheep information at all on my goats. Over the counter drugs like antibitoics are only cattle drugs, and with the quick metabolisim of goats, they are actually used at much higher dosages than in cows, the 300,000 unit penicillin that is given at 1cc per 100 pounds to cows is used at 3cc per 50 pounds in our goats.

    There is way to much good information out on the internet, that comes from Universities like Langston and Texas A&M with studies that show what wormers to use, how to use them.

    I don't use sheep minerals or grains because of the copper information we now have. Things have changed considerably since I started raising goats in 1986, and thank goodness for it. Cheap blood tests for pregnancy, ultrasounds, real information on worming, wonderful lists like saanendoah.com on copper info and also on drug dosages, no longer are we at the mercy of vets who know nothing about our small ruminates, most of us can now go armed with information! It's just so much cheaper to prevent problems then to wait for disease.

    If I had horses and goat together I would use horse minerals, they are higher in copper, and also carry wonderful products like selenium, biotin and other hoof building minerals in them. Vicki