diareah has returned

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Faithful Heart, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    Well.... Miss Hope's is still having a problem. First I'll give you what's happened on a daily basis regarding her stools, and maybe we can figure out the next step.

    Arrived Wed - with dark muddy stool in dog carrier
    Thursday - dark muddy stool (gave her yogurt to try and fix)
    Friday - lumpy, yellowy stool, rather soft (gave yogurt again)
    Saturday - getting some form, but still yellowy (gave Probios)
    Sunday - same (gave Probios)
    Monday - looking much better, almost normal, but berries seem sticky and covered with a mucus
    Tuesday - same as Monday, expect it to be perfectly normal tomorrow
    Wed - diareah again, worse than before! very runny, yellow/green

    I hadn't changed anything from Tuesday to Wed. No change in food, no change in amounts. Basiclly the whole time she's been here it's been the same...... 24 oz. milk 2x daily, free choice goat feed (she only nibbles it), free choice hay (hasn't touched), time on the pasture (little nibbles).

    Should I try the Probios again ..... for longer this time?
    Should I worm her? I do have SafeGuard and Ivermectin Paste here.

    Or move onto one of the other suggestions that had been given (oral sulfa, diarsanyl, kaopectate, or sulmet)? So many choices, and I don't know which is right for her. :help:
     
  2. homebirtha

    homebirtha Well-Known Member

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    How old is she? What is she? 24 oz. in one feeding seems like A LOT to me. We give 16 oz. max.

    Has she ever been wormed? Is she on anything for cocci prevention?
     

  3. moosemaniac

    moosemaniac Well-Known Member

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    I have pretty good luck with Pepto Bismol to at least get the diarrhea under control. Then you need to find the cause.

    Ruth
     
  4. Kshobbit

    Kshobbit Well-Known Member

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    Whenever I get a new goat they are dewormed, given an antibiotic injection, vitamin injection, and probios before they are unloaded. I follow up with another antibiotic injection and more probios in 48 hours. I give the long acting penicillin that you give subcutaneously and repeat in 48 hours. Goats can get shipping fever as well as just going off their feed due to moving to a new farm. I deworm in 3 weeks. You probably should take a sample of the stool to your vet for analysis. Of course you quarrantine the goat until you are sure they are healthy.
     
  5. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    She's about 6 weeks old, a 3/4 boar 1/4 kiko, and as far as the amount of milk, I was just going by what I was told to feed. It's actually less than I'd read is recommended, so I was actually worried about if she was getting enough. :shrug:

    She's got a goat feed in with her that is medicated for cocci, but she doesn't eat it. Or I should say - hasn't eaten much of it. She really only nibbles here and there on solids. Once again.... :shrug:

    So...... :rolleyes: (sigh) guess I've got some shopping to do, for antibiotics and vitamin shots. Is it always this difficult? I fear pumping her full of all sorts of things, not knowing the real cause. I really think the only reason she got the diareah is just from her long trip up from Florida. She had about a 4-6 hour ride on the back of a truck in a dog carrier. Heck, that would throw MY stomach off.

    Would you recommend I cut back on the milk, sorta forcing her to get hungry enough to eat more of the goat feed? I sorta figured she'd just start eating it on her own, and then naturally I would cut back on the milk, eventually having her weaned by 10-12 weeks old. I know some people wean at about 8 weeks, and have obviously cut back on milk quite a bit before then. But I thought it was a matter of IF they're eating solids good, then wean them.

    The antibiotics is incase she has coccidia, right? And the vitamin shot for just a boost?
     
  6. Kshobbit

    Kshobbit Well-Known Member

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    Does she get hay? Just a thought. The antibiotics would be for any type of bacterial infection such as shipping fever, pneumonia etc. You need to give something like Sulmet for coccidiosis. It is tough for her since there are no other goats for her to be with too. I try really hard to at least have a pair of bottle babies as they are herd animals. The vitamins are to help replenish those lost in the diarhea. Stress will bring out all sorts of things lying dormant like coccidia.
    Good luck and let us know how she is doing.
     
  7. Kshobbit

    Kshobbit Well-Known Member

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    Oh you might try watering down her milk and DO NOT wean until she is eating hay and drinking water, and eating feed too and doing a good job of it too.
    You might find out what the former owners were feeding her as well. Goats hate sudden changes of feed and hay.
     
  8. homebirtha

    homebirtha Well-Known Member

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    With a meat goat, maybe 24 oz. is ok, but it still seems like a lot to me. At 6 weeks, we were still giving 16 oz. three times a day to our dairy kids.

    The antibiotics aren't for the cocci, you would want Sulmet or something specific for cocci prevention and treatment.

    I would NOT water down the milk. It can cause major problems for kids. If anything, I'd give her less milk per feeding.

    I would also consider worming her, since you just brought her in. The stress of moving can cause a parasite overload pretty quickly.
     
  9. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

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    Young kids are so suseptible to any kind of changes, whether diet, moves, weather, etc. She's at the prime age for cocci. If you could get a fecal that would be my first suggestion and you would know whether worms or other parasites are a problem. If it were me I'd give her a Sulmet drench for five days and a worming.
     
  10. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    Faithful Heart
    Your goat sounds like one I had a while back like that. I done everything I could for her but I do not want to scare you but I lost mine. I use to have all kinds of photos of how her tail look and the stool she passed if I can find it I will post it. I sure hope to goodness yours gets well soon.

    I gave mine meds to prevent the cocci but she still went down hill fast. Only thing I want to say about mine is when I first got her she was doing really good then one day her tail started haveing poo on it and then it kept getting darker. I gave her med for cocci for a while and slowed down on her grain and gave less milk. Then she seemed to get better than I started giving her more milk and it came back so had to slow back down on it and then it seem to get better again and she started having her poo looking like berries so then I tried again with the milk and it got worse again but this time she had started going in circles and acting like she couldn't see me. She got where she couldn't stand later so I got V-B for her and gave her. Her poo would look funny. Kinda yellow and look like mucus in it. After I started giving her the V-B she seem to start doing better and started standing up some on her own and being to walk around so that was a great sign I thought and the next day I took her outside to eat some fresh grass all seem good so I gave her milk that evening and that night her runs came back. I got up the next morn and she was really bad shape. I gave her milk to drink she did but she couldn't stand up at all. So I took her outside and gave her meds to her but she just like gave up and died shortly after I had feed her. I later asked a vet and he said he didn't know for sure what happen. I thought at first it was something I done but after I talked to the vet he told me it could been something wrong only way to know if I had her opened up to see. I do not mean to sound negitvie but just telling you what I have been through.

    So I wish you the best of your getting better. I know what it is like to have a baby goat sick. Sending prayers and love to you and your baby goat..
     
  11. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    AllWolf..... I sure hope it doesn't turn out like that. That would be just awful!

    To answer some questions - (and please forgive me for how long my posts are. I can't seem to say what I need to say in a short note.)

    She does have hay, free-choice. Also has loose minerals and baking soda, free-choice. Along with the goat feed - same brand and everything she was offered/given at her old home, free-choice. She has only eaten just little bits of the medicated goat feed, and can't tell if she's touched the other stuff much. I've seen her drinking water - both in her pen, and out of the pan I fill out on the pasture when I take them out for "grass time".

    She is in a pen by herself, as is the other little goat (the young buck Chivo). They both seem pretty satisfied though. I take them both out on lunge lines at least once a day, twice or more if I have the time. Since she's not eating solids much (although eating more browse each day), I haven't been cutting forage for her daily. But Chivo gets two milk crates of cut forage daily (morning & night). Once she seems more interested in browse, I'll cut her daily amounts too.

    I went ahead and wormed her today with Ivermectin paste, and started her back on the Probios. Looking at my budget, I'll have to wait till Wednsday to get any other meds for her. Maybe she'll be better by then, we'll see. If really needed - like a turn for the worse - I can get some cash from my FIL this weekend.

    But she does play - quite the little stinker and tease even. :) She seems to get a thrill out of teasing Chivo, and quick about stealing my seat if I happen to get up. This diareah bothers me though. I read so much about this goat or that goat dieing, with "no apparent reason". And not knowing what's really wrong bothers me. I feel like I'm just shooting in the dark - medicating, or planning to medicate - for this or that or any and all. :shrug: I was kinda hoping ya' all would know more about what color poo meant what. But you have been a great help. I'll give her a few days on the probios and see how it goes, and look into the cost of the other stuff incase I get in desperate need of it over the weekend, or maybe if I can even fit the cost in now.

    HEY! Just thought of looking at all my meds in my "kit", and found I have something called SulfadiVet (Sulfadimethoxine Soluble Powder). I says it's for dairy calves, dairy heifers, and beef cattle...... for the treatment of shipping fever complex and bacterial pneumonia associated with Pasteurella spp. sensitive to sulfadimethoxine; and calf diphtheria and foot rot associated with Sphaerophorus necrophorus sensitive to sulfadimethoxine. We bought it for the chickens to treat coccidia in them. PLUS I have Terra Vet, which says it's a broad spectrum anibiotic ..... for control and treatment of specific diseases in poultry, cattle, sheep, and swine..... and it mentions the treatment of shipping fever too (says bacterial enteritis caused by Escherichia coli, and Bacterial pneumonia cased by Pasteurella mulitocida). :help:

    What about that stuff???!!!!
     
  12. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    I will give you some help here but after you read this part then besure to read the bottom part also about a vet..

    Wow thats an awfully lot of milk 24 oz a time I'm amazed it hasn't bloated. You need to give two 16.9 ozs & thats till 7 weeks then they get one bottle till 8 weeks then no bottle. Giving way to much milk will cause them to bloat and die. Or it could be e-coli esp being this time of year. The only way to know for sure on what type scours it is would be a fecal. E-Coli is treated with Spectrimyci. If it smells really really bad it could be coccidios it should be eating feed by that age but , when people over stuff them with milk they dont then the rumen doesnt develop properly.

    You need to let the baby goat have free choice of hay and medicated feed.

    When you got the goat was the people already giving it Deccox-M ?
    Deccox-M its suppose to be given though as a prevention when there younger. It calls for it from 2 - 29 days old.

    On cocci it has a terrible terrible smell. E-coli its just like normal poop smell. Some vets dont know alot but , they can check to see which thing it has because if it had cocci & you treat it for e-coli that wouldnt help it a bit or vice versa.

    If the goat does have cocci it will have a very awful smell then you would know it is cocci. If the poo has a normal poo smell it would more likely be e-coli.

    If you are not using Di-Methox Injection 40% you need to be using it now if the baby goat has coccidios but the correct way to go about that is take the goat to a vet and have them do a fecal on it. It could have coccidios or e-coli.. I can tell you how to treat you goat but the very best advice is go to a vet. Please take your baby to the vet to see what is wrong before you go treating it more. You could be treating it for something it does not have. So take it to a vet that knows how to handle goats. If you have to go out of state to find out what is wrong it might save it's life.

    Something be a big help with you on how to raise goats is this book right here .. Storeys Guide To Raising Dairy Goats..

    Good Luck on your baby goat.. Be praying for you and the baby goat.. Hope what I done tonight will help you out.. :)
     
  13. homebirtha

    homebirtha Well-Known Member

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    I think worming her was a good step. I would also cut down on the amount of milk. And I would get Sulmet or something else for the cocci TODAY! It's not that expensive, like $8.00 for a bottle. Waiting until Weds could be too late. When kids get diarrhea, one of the most likley culprits is coccidia, and it can kill them quickly. If she hasn't been on a good preventative program (like deccox in the milk), then it's likely what she has. Give her the sulmet today!!!

    The other stuff you have is for other less likely causes of diarrhea. I wouldn't throw a bunch of that at her, unless the coccidia treatment doesn't work. Yes, a fecal would be better, so you know better what you're dealing with. But since money is so tight, the cocci treatment is what I would do first.

     
  14. Sweet Goats

    Sweet Goats Cashmere goats

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    Maybe I missed it but what type of milk are you giving him? Is it the same thing that he got before you got him? I am sure you can see where I am going.
    I would keep him on the probias. What about Nutri Drench? I have it and several bottles around at all times, because I give that for everything. It is just a good all around energy boost". I have to agree, I do not like to give meds unless I know what they have. In 6 years I have only given meds twice, 1. for having a buck "fixed" by surgery because he was quite a bit older and BIGGER, and he ended up with a infection, and 2. I had a goat with a upper resp infection. I have about 5 different meds that I have on hand just in case, but only two have ever been used.
    You asked before "is it always like this?" NO it is not. You are doing a great job, keep up the good work and I will be praying for you and the little one.
     
  15. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

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    At this point, instead of shooting in the dark, I'd get a fecal on her asap. That way, no guessing on cocci or no cocci, worms or no worms. A fecal won't break the bank and any vet can do it - doesn't need to be livestock. Cocci treatment will not hurt her so I'd start that in any event. And I agree, that amount of milk is a lot.
     
  16. witchysharon

    witchysharon Well-Known Member

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    I'd give sulmet a try for possible cocci. or use albon. giving her something that 'prevents' cocci now isn't going to work if she already has a heavy infestation. feeds with a cocci additive only 'prevent' they do not 'treat'.

    http://fiascofarm.com/goats/coccidiosis.htm#signs

    http://fiascofarm.com/goats/medications.htm#sulfamethazine

    you may be able to get sulmet at your local feed or Tractor Supply. Every single feed mill around me carries it, so yours probably does too. I had to use Sulmet recently on a 2 month old wether and it took care of the cocci and cleared up his diarrhea.
     
  17. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    Is cutting way back on the milk going to throw her stomach off? Should I cut back slowly? Maybe 2 oz. a day till she's at 16 oz.? I did cut back starting with last nights feeding, by 2 oz. I think at this rate it would take 4 days to get her to 16 oz. Should I do it faster or slower than that?

    I have Storey's Guide To Dairy Goats, The New Goat Handbook, and Raising Meat Goats For Profit. Read each one atleast twice all the way through. :rolleyes: It's alot to retain in the brain..... but has been my guide.

    Here's exactly what each book says about amount of bottle feeding for her age (3-8 weeks old):
    Storey's Guide.....
    - 32 oz. 2x daily (64 oz. daily total, unless I'm misreading it)
    The New Goat Handbook.....
    - 2 quarts per day (64 oz. daily total)
    Raising Meat Goats For Profit......
    - Feed 20 oz. milk 3x a day (60 oz. daily total, unless I'm misreading it)

    I figured I couldn't be misreading two of them, since The New Goat Handbook says very clearly 2 quarts per day.

    I've been feeding her 48 oz. per day..... so that's even less than the books suggest. It's the same amount she was getting at her old home, except I put it in 2 feedings instead of 3. But last night I went ahead and started her on 22 oz. per feeding (44 oz. daily total), since everyone on here seems to be saying she's getting too much milk.

    Her poo is a little stinky, but not over powering. Sorta smells like dog poo, but not as stinky.

    She hasn't been given deccox in the milk. I was just told by her previous owner to give her two 8 oz. bottles, 3x a day, and medicated goat feed. And my feed store carries the same kind of feed she was offered before, so I bought that, but she hasn't eaten much of it. About 2 cups in a week. She's got it free-choice, so this is a guess at how much she ate.

    To be honest..... now I'm so confused and totally unsure what to do. Everyone seems to suggest something different - oral sulfa, Diarsanyl, Kaopectate, Sulmet, deccox-M, Di-Methox Injection, Spectrimyci, vitamin B shots, antibiotic shots, worming, probios....... :help: I can't possibly need to medicate her with all of that, of course. But I'm not even sure now which medication is for what, and if some are for the same problem but just have different names. ?????

    I'm heading to the feed store after this post, so I'll see what they have and read the backs of each. Maybe that'll help. But I don't really know what or which to buy out of this list. Asking myself.... should I just buy it ALL, just incase I need it??? I've got some money (about $45), but know that I need nearly $15 of that for her milk..... if I start decreasing it. The rest was just suppose to be for "grocery" money till I get paid. So it's not like I'm totally broke, just have to re-adjust things I guess. Didn't put it in the budget to spend so much on her in the first week. Already spent nearly $70 on her for some basics, feed, and meds, and now looking at who knows what.... another $20-$30?

    I know this is important, and I certainly don't want her to die, but I'm feeling rather overwhelmed by all the suggestions...... not knowing which medicines, talk of emergency vet trip, and the idea of going out of state to a vet is completely out of the question. Cost and my job do not permit something like that AT ALL. I'm gonna chill out, run to the feed store, and go from there.
     
  18. homebirtha

    homebirtha Well-Known Member

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    Ok, first, take a deep breat. This is the kind of responses you will get when you post on a forum like this, different opinions and differen solutions, some good, some bad. It's really better for you to have your own resources that you trust lined up, so you know whose answer to listen to. That said, you don't have that, so you're going to have to wade through what people have offered and figure what makes the most sense. Read at fiascofarms.com as well. Very good advice there. I also read a lot on dairygoatsplus.com. No offense to folks on this board, but I feel like I get more solid, consistent advice there. I see good advice on this board, but I also see really bad advice sometimes. So I take what I get here with a grain of salt, and check it out other places.

    On the milk, it's not that she's getting too much over the course of a whole day, but too much at each feeing. The fact that she was getting smaller feedings at her last home, and that now she's scouring on bigger feedings, is a pretty good indication that the feedings are more then her belly can handle. When you are weaning, you don't want to combine the same amount of milk into less feeings, you want to keep the feedings the same size, and reduce the number of feedings. So either go to 2 feeds of 16 oz. or go back up to 3 feedings of 16 oz, but you don't want to combine the 3 into 2 feedings. Does that make sense? Oh, and yes, I would cut her back now, or at least over the course of 2 or 3 feedings, not 4 days.

    As far as the diarrhea. Coccidia is present in every goat. It's generally only a problem in kids because they haven't built up an immunity yet. So, she's definitely got cocci in her system (they all do). When they're stressed (from moving and having her milk amount increased), the cocci starts to overtake her system. It happens all the time in these situations, especially in kids who haven't been on good prevention. Treating her for cocci won't hurt her, and it's fairly inexpensive. Even if it's not cocci causing the diarrhea,she still needs to be on some kind of cocci prevention. i.e. It's something you should already have been doing and you should be doing, even if she wasn't scouring. If you can afford a vet visit, by all means, do it. But since your resources are limited, the cocci treatment is the smartest place to start. Oh, and I agree with ?sharon? or whoever it was who said she needs treatment at this stage, not prevention. So the feed with cocci prevention in it isn't enough. She needs sulmet or albon, something to use to treat cocci once it's already been a problem.

    Good luck and hang in there. It does get easier.

     
  19. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I understand that I'll get different responses. I see that in all the books and web pages too. I guess I expected to get a few more consistant responses HERE...... with what seems to be more "reachable" people. Web sites cover such general things, trying to cover it all. Thought that if I gave specifics, I could get a clearer answer. :shrug: (sigh)

    I ended up choosing the feed store guy's advice. Had to pick someone's advice. He does have goats, and uses the same vet as I do. We talked for some time, and I was comfortable with what he suggested.

    So.... here's what the plan is. I'll treat her for coccidia next week (just 5 days from now), but for now I'm gonna work on treating the diareah. Started her on 4 ounces electrolites (only), and will feed that to her every 2 hours till Sunday morning (8 feedings in a day = 32 oz./1 quart. Sunday morning I'll start her on 2 oz. electrolites & 2 oz. milk every 2 hours, continuing that for 2 days. After that she'll get 4 oz. milk every 2 hours for 4 days. Beyond that he gave me an extensive program of amounts of milk & number of times to feed, going from the 8 feedings, to 6 feedings, to 4 feedings (keeping her at 32 oz. total daily intake). Then a program for weaning her, starting with decreasing the amount she gets, but not how often (6 oz. bottles = 24 oz. daily intake). THEN to decrease how often, but not the size of each feeding, which ends up also decreasing her DAILY amount (18 oz daily intake). Her weaning will begin at about 8 1/2 weeks old, so she'll be down to only 18 ounces in a day at 9 weeks.

    But I will, like I said, treat her for coccidia in 5 days. All the local feed store had that was on the "list" was Sulmet and the vitamin B, so I'll start on the those two. I'll have to see about the other feed store in the next town. They seemed to be more stocked on meds when I was there.

    That's the best I can do. For me it's alot, especially considering I work at night, so feeding every 2 hours during the day (when I should be sleeping) is really gonna hurt. BUT..... I just can't stretch the cash as far as it needs to go, so I'll just stretch me instead. :shrug: It's not like I haven't done it before for other little babies. I can do it again.

    Next week Miss Hope can break the bank AND break me. LOL :rolleyes:
     
  20. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, if this little girl does have a cocci overload, an anti-diarrheal will only temporarily cover the symptom. It will do nothing to kick down that organism. Five days is long IF she does have coccidia and that's the question. Usually cocci stool is brown, but I don't know if what you've been giving her might change droppings color. Again, the fecal (mind you, you wouldn't need to pay a vet appt for this, only the fecal charge at any vet's) would give you some answers. Hope you can get this resolved; I know sick goats are a stressful experience!