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lost in my own mind
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i know all dogs carry this little bug, my question is can you check for the immune defect in the momma dog before she breeds for this to know if she gonna pass on the immune defect or is it mainly a crap shoot and hope for the best
 

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If she had generalized demodex she should not be bred. I might even be a bit leary if she's produced pups that developed generalized demodex (especially if there was more than one affected pup). I know of no test that can determine if a dog carries the defective immune system genes that allow demodex to flourish.
 

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lost in my own mind
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
she had 3 out of 8 get it ive already took her out of my breeding program but it stinks to have to as she a good dog. just asking if there was a test, it was her first litter and what it cost to buy a bull terrier now a days it is quite a waste
 

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I wish there was an easy test, but I don't think that's the case. It's nice to hear of a responsible breeder!!!
 

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Most cases of demodex are triggered by stress-- and occur after weaning-- right about the time all those 'whombo-combo' vaccination shots are OVERWHELMING an immature immune system.

Perhaps if you changed your shot protocol and focused on natural ways to enhance an immune system, you will find that the brood ***** will not 'pass on' the so called 'faulty' genetics. it is OUR habits that weaken the animals- we interfere with the natural order of things.

Mammalian immune sytems were not designed to be overwhelmed-- they were designed to be challenged, by one enemy at a time. I read some interesting research on HOD-- a 'disease' that usually affects large breed, male pups--some vets have withdrawn fluid from the joints, and found live Distemper virus in the fluid-- I know of of no cases of HOD that occur when the distemper vaccine is not given, or when the vaccination protocol calls for limited viruses to be injected all at the same time. HOD always showed up about 10 days AFTER a distemper vaccine was given-- and NEVER after the first vaccine-- it is the subsequent vaccines that cause the trouble.
 

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Terry W said:
Mammalian immune sytems were not designed to be overwhelmed-- they were designed to be challenged, by one enemy at a time. I read some interesting research on HOD-- a 'disease' that usually affects large breed, male pups--some vets have withdrawn fluid from the joints, and found live Distemper virus in the fluid-- I know of of no cases of HOD that occur when the distemper vaccine is not given, or when the vaccination protocol calls for limited viruses to be injected all at the same time. HOD always showed up about 10 days AFTER a distemper vaccine was given-- and NEVER after the first vaccine-- it is the subsequent vaccines that cause the trouble.
Actually this has been shown to only happen in Weimereiners.
 

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Pyrenees said:
Actually this has been shown to only happen in Weimereiners.
Irish Setters, GSDs, GSPs, Rotties, English Setters-- to name the breeds I have actually seen it in---
 

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A Wiem breeder I know eliminated HOD from her lines by not breeding any dog that had the condition or had littermates that did. Her show friends who blamed it all on vaccines continue to produce HOD affected pups. Same thing goes for Demodex. As long as people excuse the problem due to "stress" it will persist. Hundreds of thousands of pups get vaccinated every year without developing HOD or demodex. Breeders who don't make the hard decision to weed out weak immune systems from their programs (like the OP is doing) are doing their breeds a great disservice.
 

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Terry W said:
Irish Setters, GSDs, GSPs, Rotties, English Setters-- to name the breeds I have actually seen it in---
But...how can you prove definitively it was related to the vaccines...do you make the assumption that had they gone unvaccinated none would have developed HOD?
 

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Pyrenees said:
But...how can you prove definitively it was related to the vaccines...do you make the assumption that had they gone unvaccinated none would have developed HOD?
HOD is found to be distemper--so the Modified Live Virus replicated-- meaning the dog's immune sytem FAILED to do its job. It is not an easy thing for immature systems to MULTI-TASK-- and no, I do not make the assumption that they would not have developed HOD-- Just that more and more, across many species,(including our human children) vaccination is getting tied to seemingly unrelated problems.
What I have felt in my gut has proven true in the past, and somehow, it is the vets I have found that also subscribe to alternative theories that have the fewest repeat patients for chronic problems. No, the patients don't die-- they get healthy!!! My late Bally was immune compromised--it wasn't until the new vet stated--"He doesn't need all these vaccines" that ALL of his woes diminished to comfortable levels. One visit to her may have initially been more expensive, but repeat visits were very few and far between. He became the only one from his litter to live into double digits. My current vet only gave Conman one set of vaccinations when i bought him home from the breeder-- and it was a dose he halved, that did not have 7 different 'things' in it. The dog is now 3.5 years old, and except for the occasional insect bite (something bit and paralyzed him a few months ago- recovery time--36 hours) nothing bothers him. I even asked about getting a Lepto booster into him, because he has become quite the mouser, The vet feels the two shots the breeder gave, plus the good health of the dog, will work. So far, so good-- and this is NOT a pet or show dog we are talking about-- it is my SERVICE ANIMAL--so it is imperitive the dog stays healthy.
 

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Terry W said:
HOD is found to be distemper--so the Modified Live Virus replicated-- meaning the dog's immune sytem FAILED to do its job.
Nonsense. Modified live vaccines are SUPPOSED TO REPLICATE in the body. In that way, they mimic wild virus more accurately than a killed vaccine, because WILD VIRUS REPLICATES in the body. When it replicates enough, you show symptoms. That is why modified live vaccines generally provoke a stronger immune response with less repetition that killed vaccines, and why killed vaccines usually require an adjuvant to produce a good immune response. IOW, a modified live vaccine that DOESN'T REPLICATE in the body ISN'T WORKING PROPERLY.

Terry W said:
My current vet only gave Conman one set of vaccinations when i bought him home from the breeder-- and it was a dose he halved, that did not have 7 different 'things' in it.
Halving a vaccine dose is also nonsense. It generally requires X amount of antigen, or disease causing agent, to provoke a good immune response. Vaccines are manufactured with a fudge factor, extra antigen, to be sure there is enough to provoke a good response. (High titer vaccines have even more antigen, to overcome remaining maternal immunity in puppies.) Giving just half the vaccine runs the risk of not injecting enough antigen to provoke a good immune response. I've seen people advocating half a vaccine for toy breeds as well. This is also nonsense. The 'size' of the immune system doesn't differ between a Chihuahua and a Great Dane; each dog's immune system will need to be exposed to x amount of antigen to produce immunity. It doesn't take less antigen to make a Chihuahua sick, just like a Great Dane doesn't need to be exposed to more virus to get sick. This kind of hypocrisy from the so-called 'holistic movement' drives me up the wall. If the puppy is raised to be healthy, fed a correct diet, etc. what does it matter how much antigen you inject it with? It will either respond or it won't. Using a half dose contradicts the whole theory. If a pup is so weak a whole dose of vaccine makes it ill, it isn't very healthy, is it?

Jess
 

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NightmareRanch said:
Nonsense. Modified live vaccines are SUPPOSED TO REPLICATE in the body. In that way, they mimic wild virus more accurately than a killed vaccine, because WILD VIRUS REPLICATES in the body. When it replicates enough, you show symptoms. That is why modified live vaccines generally provoke a stronger immune response with less repetition that killed vaccines, and why killed vaccines usually require an adjuvant to produce a good immune response. IOW, a modified live vaccine that DOESN'T REPLICATE in the body ISN'T WORKING PROPERLY.

Finding LIVE VIRUS means the immune system has failed to destroy the virus. It is the body learning to recognize and destroy the virus that has failed. therfore, the immune system failed, NOT THE VACCINE



Halving a vaccine dose is also nonsense.

It generally requires X amount of antigen, or disease causing agent, to provoke a good immune response.


Consider dosing on a 'per pound' basis-- why does a chihuahua get the same dose as a Great Dane? IT IS EXPOSURE that is intended to stimulate the system so it can 'learn', NOT the intentional creation of the disease

Vaccines are manufactured with a fudge factor, extra antigen, to be sure there is enough to provoke a good response. (High titer vaccines have even more antigen, to overcome remaining maternal immunity in puppies.) Giving just half the vaccine runs the risk of not injecting enough antigen to provoke a good immune response. I've seen people advocating half a vaccine for toy breeds as well. This is also nonsense. The 'size' of the immune system doesn't differ between a Chihuahua and a Great Dane; each dog's immune system will need to be exposed to x amount of antigen to produce immunity. It doesn't take less antigen to make a Chihuahua sick, just like a Great Dane doesn't need to be exposed to more virus to get sick. This kind of hypocrisy from the so-called 'holistic movement' drives me up the wall. If the puppy is raised to be healthy, fed a correct diet, etc. what does it matter how much antigen you inject it with? It will either respond or it won't. Using a half dose contradicts the whole theory. If a pup is so weak a whole dose of vaccine makes it ill, it isn't very healthy, is it?


If the immune system needs a huge dose, then what isn't working? It is well published that we are all 'sicker' becuase we Don't challenge the systems the way Nature intended. Our focus on eradicating all germs has caused an overall decline in health. Toy breeds are a result of human intervention, shoot, Chihuahuas were raised as a food source, then some people made them even smaller. The larger the size of dog, the more of the proper antibodies are stored within the 'system'--a larger dog CAN handle a larger dose, as long as the memory cells are there. A single memory cell in a chihuahua may help, but a heavy exposure means more time is needed for the system to react and produce-- hence the movement to halving doses.

You may not like the thinking of those that practice a holistic approach to life, but it is those people who are finding they and their children , animals, and communities are getting healthier, rather than sicker. There is an old saying "Everyone eats a peck of dirt in their lifetime" The holistic movement recognizes that is the way Nature intended for her children to develop strength.
 

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Terry W said:
Finding LIVE VIRUS means the immune system has failed to destroy the virus. It is the body learning to recognize and destroy the virus that has failed. therfore, the immune system failed, NOT THE VACCINE
The virus has to go into the body and replicate to produce an immune response. I have had many puppies come down with parvo. The virus goes into the lymph system, and from there into the bone marrow. You could probably find virus through the entire puppy before the immune system starts to kill it off by producing antibodies, because it will take x amount of virus to produce symptoms. Even in a puppy with no symptoms you will be able to isolate live virus from it when it's been exposed. This is why dogs who have been infected, whether with wild virus or with a modified live vaccine, will SHED virus in their feces and other secretions for a period of time, WHETHER there have shown symptoms or not. Live virus in the body is NOT an indication that the immune system has failed. It simply means exposure, whether to a wild variant or to a vaccine variant. You can even do DNA analysis on virus isolated from a dog to determine where it came from, wild or vaccine.

Terry W said:
Consider dosing on a 'per pound' basis-- why does a chihuahua get the same dose as a Great Dane? IT IS EXPOSURE that is intended to stimulate the system so it can 'learn', NOT the intentional creation of the disease
Vaccines are neither manufactured or dosed on a per pound basis. If you read the package insert, it does not give directions on dosing by weight. Vaccine manufacturers, no matter how evil you may believe them to be, have actually done challenge studies on their products. They have to in order to market them. If half a dose worked well as a whole dose, you'd find a lot less antigen in their vaccines, and no one would be promoting high titer vaccines. If you had actually read what I wrote instead of flying off the holistic handle, you'll note that I stated the immune system doesn't come in different sizes according to the size of the dog. It takes, statistically, the same amount of disease causing agent to stimulate the immune system in a big dog as in a little dog. Too little antigen will not challenge the immune system sufficiently to produce 'good' memory immunity. Killed vaccines have the same problem, and it takes more repetitions to produce the same amount of immunity with killed vaccines as with live. If the immune system is NOT sufficiently stimulated, it will not produce sufficient immunity when challenged with a large dose of virus, and may not 'remember' the virus at all. This is one of the reasons why vaccines sometimes fail, because the dog has received an overwhelming challenge dose and the immune response is not strong enough to prevent the disease. Personally, I would much rather my puppies be exposed to a properly sized dose of INACTIVATED virus, so their immune system is properly challenged and creates proper memory cells, then skimp on the inactivated virus and have them fall prey to a big dose of live virus somewhere down the line. No one has done challenge studies with half a vaccine. If you're so confident that it works just as well, vaccinate your next pup with a single half dose of vaccine, and I will gladly send you some parvo infected material to challenge it with.

Terry W said:
If the immune system needs a huge dose, then what isn't working? It is well published that we are all 'sicker' becuase we Don't challenge the systems the way Nature intended. Our focus on eradicating all germs has caused an overall decline in health. Toy breeds are a result of human intervention, shoot, Chihuahuas were raised as a food source, then some people made them even smaller. The larger the size of dog, the more of the proper antibodies are stored within the 'system'--a larger dog CAN handle a larger dose, as long as the memory cells are there. A single memory cell in a chihuahua may help, but a heavy exposure means more time is needed for the system to react and produce-- hence the movement to halving doses.
Sorry, I know many people who breed chihuahuas, even tiny ones, and vaccinate their puppies with full doses and have absolutely no problems with them. The vaccine initially produces an antibody response, not memory cells. Those come later, when the immune system is challenged again by the same disease. That is the whole point of vaccinating, that the body will remember the disease later and produce the correct antibodies. I don't know what you mean about memory cells at the time of vaccination, because that's not how it works for the initial vaccines anyways. The movement to halving doses comes from people not understanding how the immune system really works, and from reactions in small breeds to adjuvants used in killed vaccines. Don't use killed vaccines, you avoid the adjuvants, you don't need to halve the dose. Giving a half dose of a killed vaccine is a recipe for vaccine failure anyways, since killed vaccines are not as good at producing memory response as modified live.

And antibodies are not 'stored.' They are produced on demand, after exposure. That's the point of vaccines. The dog is 'infected' with an inactivated version of the virus. Dogs body produces antibodies to that exposure, and hopefully, later on in life, when it is exposed to wild virus, it's body will remember the disease and produce the correct antibodies. That's why titers are pretty much worthless as a measure of immunity, unless you are checking to see if a recently vaccinated dog actually seroconverted. Lack of circulating antibodies does not indicate that the dog is not immune, as there is no test to check for memory cells.

Terry W said:
You may not like the thinking of those that practice a holistic approach to life, but it is those people who are finding they and their children , animals, and communities are getting healthier, rather than sicker. There is an old saying "Everyone eats a peck of dirt in their lifetime" The holistic movement recognizes that is the way Nature intended for her children to develop strength.
I happen to raise my dogs as 'holistically' as possible. I feed a home made, raw diet, I don't use chemicals in my dogs, I avoid antibiotics whenever possible. I even moved to an area where I don't need to use flea, tick, or heartworm preventatives. I don't worm my dogs. I have even gone the 'no vaccine' route, for a time, but it didn't work for me because I live in a parvo endemic area. Even so, my pups get minimal vaccines, and I do not vaccinate my adult dogs at all. I know for a fact that giving multi-antigen vaccines does not produce as good an immune response as a single antigen vaccine, because I have seen it in my own puppies. Halving a vaccine would have the same effect. Holistic doesn't mean always do this, never do that and your dogs will be healthier. That's a bunch of garbage. Holistic isn't a one size fits all list of stuff to do. Holistic means adapting to your situation and the environment that your dogs live in, even adapting your protocol to the breed you have. If that means you decide to use heartworm preventative because you live in a high risk area, or vaccinate for parvo because it's endemic, then that can be holistic, too. To turn it around, holistic means treating the dog and it's situation on an individual basis, not just blindly pumping vaccines and chemicals into, or just as blindly NOT using vaccines and chemicals. Holistic means understanding how the body systems work and adapting that knowledge to your situation, not just making blanket statements, which, BTW, are incorrect.

Jess
 

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I know what "memeory cells" are-- and these are what titers show.

If you want to vaccinate your Chihuahua with the same does as an adult Great Dane_ go ahead-- would you treat that Chihuahua with the same does of antibiotic as you would the Great Dane?

A fter all, if the "fudge factor" incorporates the size differences in vaccinations, why isn't the 'fudge factor" the same for antibiotics and prophylactics?
And those of us who have Sighthounds, especially Basenjis, have to be even more diligent about treatments for ANYTHING than those with the other dog 'families'
Thank heavens i have a healthy Chessie-
 

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Terry W said:
I know what "memeory cells" are-- and these are what titers show.
A titer test measure circulating antibodies. Here is a very good link explaining titer testing and what it's good for.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm

Terry W said:
If you want to vaccinate your Chihuahua with the same does as an adult Great Dane_ go ahead-- would you treat that Chihuahua with the same does of antibiotic as you would the Great Dane?
Vaccines are not antibiotics.

Terry W said:
A fter all, if the "fudge factor" incorporates the size differences in vaccinations, why isn't the 'fudge factor" the same for antibiotics and prophylactics?
Probably because vaccines aren't antibiotics. They do totally different things. It's like comparing apples and bricks.

Terry W said:
And those of us who have Sighthounds, especially Basenjis, have to be even more diligent about treatments for ANYTHING than those with the other dog 'families'
Thank heavens i have a healthy Chessie-
I have sighthounds, have had them for many years: Afghan hounds, Salukis, and Italian Greyhounds. Interestingly they have been far healthier and more resistant to damage from drugs and vaccines than other breeds I have had. I don't know if that true of most sighthounds or just my particular lines. The ex-racing Greyhound I have owned have not been particularly healthy dogs, however.

Look, I don't care what you do with your own dogs. But you need to get your facts right.

Jess
 
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