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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

Also watching the guy, you need lot finesse, that magnet isnt super powerful, so any excess pressure going to wobble the knife.

This would be great at like $30 to $50, but close to $200, probably not. Still cool unique way of doing it that is pretty idiot proof.
 
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I wasted a lot of years using a stone. I saw the one in the link below in a store one day and picked it up, thinking it couldn't really work for the money. It changed my life. I've used it for several years on 15-20 different knives and can't find anything to complain about yet. 10 licks or so every so often keep them all sharp enough for surgery.


 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I wasted a lot of years using a stone. I saw the one in the link below in a store one day and picked it up, thinking it couldn't really work for the money. It changed my life. I've used it for several years on 15-20 different knives and can't find anything to complain about yet. 10 licks or so every so often keep them all sharp enough for surgery.


And you made exact point of why the pull through carbide sharpeners are not optimal IMHO. They give the ILLUSION of sharpness, in fact a very rough ragged edge, in a way an imitation of a fine serrated edge, that has to be renewed frequently with your proverbial ten licks, because its weak and fails faster.

Traditional stones or other systems that shape the edge with coarse grit and THEN you work your way to finer and finer grits, finally stropping with jewelers rouge to get a POLISHED edge. In my experience a truly sharp polished edge will last much longer in service. Its also more work to get to a polished edge. Especially if you are doing one knife at a time. I can do one or dozen knives on my little belt sander in ten to twenty minutes, that includes stropping. Most of actual time used is in changing belts to finer and finer grit. Not so much in number of knives. A coarse grit belt will shape the edge, if necessary for a very dull knife, but will not give a durable edge.

But hey knife sharpening is a personal thing, different people want different qualities in a knife. Some even worry about a knife being too sharp. I dont think I understand that particular desire, but each to their own. There is no "right" way, its about what is useful to you. You paid your money, you should have the edge you want.
 

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I resisted and shared your opinion for years, but as stated after several years I can't find anything to complain about. No serrated edges, but then again I haven't used it on walmart steel. 10 licks occur no sooner than sitting at a bench with a stone would have. You are right and you have to find your own way. There are snobs in every avenue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Actually most kitchen knives are some variation of 420 steel, some 440. The Chinese and Europeans, etc have different nomenclature for it There are then some super duper hard specialty steels, most of which you wont run into on anything but very high dollar kitchen knives, more seen on fancy hunting knives, etc. Gross overkill for kitchen use unless you truly hate sharpening knives and want five year between sharpenings or something. And some junk mystery steels on the really low end knives. Those tend to be gummy and really hard to sharpen as the wire edge wont separate cleanly.

And of course quality/degree of the temper matters. Cheap knives can vary wildly. Just saying far as steel used, there isnt that much difference between your $10 Walmart special and your $100 German chef knife. Usually cheaper ones though similar steel, arent as well tempered. Cheap knives are fascinating though. When I was teaching myself how to sharpen, got quite the collection of thrift store and cheap knives. Maybe most frustrating were two knives I got for $1 each at Dollar Tree. You know only highest quality steel when you give whole $1 for a NEW retail chef knife.... Interestingly they werent the gummy mystery steel thats next to impossible to sharpen well. Not super hard temper either, kinda on soft side. I could sharpen them and they would stay sharp maybe a week at most. So kinda abandoned them but then ran across them again after lot more experience. Was looking and you know biggest problem, their geometry-profile. So as experiment, got out the angle grinder and gave one of them an approximation of a full flat grind. A large belt sander been better, my little sander fine for sharpening, not reprofiling. Then resharpened with belt sander. Interestingly the edge was still holding at a month. I didnt go beyond that. But proved a point that a sharp edge isnt everything. Geometry really matters.

Oh and far as seeing ragged edge, you really need a magnifying glass to compare edges. It will be obvious under magnification.

And no I havent known how to sharpen knife my whole life. Something like ten or fifteen years ago, got frustrated with almost sharp knives. And I tried several gadgets including one similar to what you gave link. Nope, still just almost sharp. Honestly thats about all gadgets can do is give you "almost sharp". I could do as well or better with angle grinder and very light touch. But edge has to be feathered out, not scraped, not almost sharp. Traditionally people sharpened knives with slow turning hand or pedal powered wheel with tin can water dripping on it, then lot stropping. Stropping can cure a multitude of sharpening mistakes or limitations. And this worked fairly well on plain carbon steel. But such manually powered grinders with large natural stone wheels not plentiful. Not as effective on stainless. Modern powered grinder is not a good thing for sharpening knives.

Oh another knife. My first wife brought it into marriage. It was an old no name carbon steel knife, the kind that turn black and rust easily if not oiled after use. She got it at local grocery store when she got her first apartment long before we were married. That was our only sharp knife for lot years. And I could get it almost sharp, well sharp enough to use but didnt feel really sharp. Butcher knife, but we used it for everything. Oh that thing was frustrating. It was still here when we parted, but then disappeared. Well when my old refrigerator finally quit, and I was dragging it out the door, that knife fell out of the evaporation pan under the refrigerator. No idea how it got there.. and it was pretty rusty. But said ok, lets have go at the old FRUSTRATION. Oh it wasnt even much of a challenge. Cleaned up and razor sharp lickety split with the belt sander. Plain carbon steel knives tend to be really easy to sharpen and it was. Sure that was first time in its history that it was truly sharp. This was the knife that resisted all gadgets and grinders and such.

Oh mentioned it in another thread sometime back, was just looking at cheap knives at Walmart for entertainment. And saw one of those commercial NSF rated white plastic handle knives like they use for production work at restaurants. A Tramontina Pro (made in Brazil), probably only non Chinese knife they had. But it had full flat grind and distal taper, something not seen often in the cheapies. Not fond of plastic handles but got it, like $8. A truly impressive knife for the money. Similar Victorinox has nothing on it. It was actually very sharp new out of the package. I used it for while like that, pretty sure it was a six month to year type knife far as retaining an edge. Then was sharpening another knife and sharpened it too. Even better.

Oh my favorite knifes are the German or Spanish Henckels chef knives or the Wusthof. They have some heft. The Spanish Henckels are really the bargain, can find them used under $15. New they are around $60. I cant see the German ones are that much better, though German ones have better fit and finish. Full flat grind and distal taper. Can be taken from blunt to very sharp fairly fast. Whats truly a shame are some of thin bladed Japanese knives when clueless people try to sharpen them. they dont withstand sharpening abuse nearly as well as the heavy knives and definitely suffer with gadget sharpening.. So usually see used ones with really wonky wavy edge. Or at least a very worn down edge. I have a MAC original that is quite nice. Not as fond of flat bottom "slider" knives but its ok. That thin flat grind blade when sharp is quite amazing. I swear it will handle hard shell squash as well if not better than the Wusthof or Henckels. Thats why the MAC originals got reputation for staying sharp long time. They didnt really, not super special steel, but good steel combined with excellent thin blade geometry, made them feel sharp long time.
 

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I think I will keep my belt grinder and diamond steel

I have no regrets in buying the Ken onion blade grinder works great to re-contour , fix tips , variable speed ,
had it 2 years now bets sharpener I have used sort of a friend's big 2x72 variable speed belt grinder
 

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With this big family I cut up a lot of meat and veggies. Was out butchering a pig the other day and stopped to sharpen my knife(Wusthof). After I was done the knife went through the meat like butter. One of my daughters was helping me and DH husband was just passing by. I made the comment "nothing more beautiful than a sharp knife". DH husband gave me a concerned look and daughter made a comment on what a strange mom she had.😁
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
For the gadget sharpener lovers out there Project Farm channel did test, this guy is thorough and fair, not selling anything, spent own money on products he tests and he tests lot stuff:


For maximum knife life and maximum sharpness, still say good set stones is way to go. The gadgets will eat a knife, look at the shavings piling up with some of carbide gadgets in the video. I still like my HF small belt sander using zirconium oxide belts and free hand with light touch. I am not super impressed with most setups with set arbitrary angle. Though that original setup I posted about is really clever. Too bad is so overpriced for what it is. I much rather buy a set high quality stones if spending that much. My little HF belt sander only cost $30 when I got it several years ago, think they are now $60+. Still think good buy for knife sharpening. Light touch (let the belt do the work) and steady hand. Yes any freehand sharpening like belt sander or stones there is a learning curve. And knife profile/geometry is as if not more important than kind of steel or an ultra sharp edge. For kitchen knife especially, full flat grind and distal tapering is important and should be standard but isnt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Actually forgot about this guy.

He hawks his own little carbide sharpener on youtube. But he did this video on sharpening knife with a rock. Didnt make a penny showing this, but gained lot respect in my eyes. You can tell he enjoys this sort thing, not just a sales job.


And here is example of him demonstrating his carbide gadget:


NOTICE: He has developed technique, rock or carbide gizmo. his gizmo has a pull through slot but he rarely uses that, he uses the little square bit carbide and his technique holding it certain way and uses light touch. You can by way buy a similar gadget sold by Corona to sharpen pruners for $10, its just the square carbide in plastic handle, doesnt have his gadgets's extras. But since he mostly just uses the square carbide.... If desperate for a gadget, I would go with the Corona and imitate his freehand technique in using the square bit carbide.
 

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I have a stone or two I bought about 45 yrs ago when I was young and dumb and made part of my spending money in the fall by how many critters I could skin in a day. Have some others that were inherited from folks born in the 1800s that are wallowed out from use. Both stones and their butcher knives had lost quite a bit of material from many sharpenings over the years. I need to find where I boxed them all up when we moved and pull them out for the grandkids to see what it was like in the "stone" age. They can practice on my cheap schrade, old timers, and old hickorys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have a stone or two I bought about 45 yrs ago when I was young and dumb and made part of my spending money in the fall by how many critters I could skin in a day. Have some others that were inherited from folks born in the 1800s that are wallowed out from use. Both stones and their butcher knives had lost quite a bit of material from many sharpenings over the years. I need to find where I boxed them all up when we moved and pull them out for the grandkids to see what it was like in the "stone" age. They can practice on my cheap schrade, old timers, and old hickorys.
Lower end affordable whet stones tend to wear lot faster, especially if you try to use them dry. And honestly just go to Lowes and buy one new brick. Soak it in water.... yea not the best but it will sharpen a knife if your technique is good. And unlike most rocks you find, it is flat out of the box so to speak, so lot easier to get even edge than found rock. Also short of finding a flat hard rock, its about as cheap as it gets. After the brick, use unglazed edge on coffee mug or other ceramic dish/plate. Thats about equivalent of 6000 grit stone. Now the high end stones cost fortune but they do last forever. I am happy with my little HF belt sander so not in market, but they are impressive and can do an amazing job of sharpening.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)

Good comparison of sharpening methods. Though to be honest though his technique was fine with the whet stones, he didnt give it enough time. 5 scrapes per side on each grit whet stone NOT enough on knife that dull. You need to draw out that wire edge on the coarse stone, not just count 5 strokes. It takes patience and technique to get really sharp edge. But you can. Look for channel called Burrfection for better use of whetstones. And comparing whetstones, there is difference in quality. Also cheaper ones will wear faster. Notice how that Burrfection guy constantly tests for wire edge developing.

The little HF belt sander is great, I have one. Its fast and no water or oil needed. Again freehand it takes some practice, well lot practice to get really good at it. He says not to sharpen with edge up or implies that, but says it while stropping.. Actually edge up is fine with the sanding belts, maybe even preferred. Edge down necessary using leather stropping belt or you will slice it. I suggest zirconium oxide belts for sharpening though aluminum oxide will work if thats what you got. And you can go to coarser grit belt if you have light touch, it will establish edge on very blunt knife much faster and really necessary if you are reprofiling and need to remove lot metal. Dont use lot pressure, let the belt do the work. Especially if using very coarse grit belt. You can really do damage with coarse belt cause it does remove metal fast.

Oh dont throw away your old belts. As they wear, the coarser grits wear down and become equivalent to finer grit. If you get to where its super smooth, you can apply a bit of jewelers rouge (stropping compound) and .....
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I debated including link to article on buy chef knife, but this one is pretty good: We Tested 30 Chef’s Knives to Find Our Favorite Multitaskers

They have the usual bias as to wanting perfect edge on knife new out of box. Look companies that can afford tag teams of knife sharpening Black Forest elves to bring edge of each and every knife to perfection, going to want your first born in exchange. Most knife companies, its going to be all automated fast and furious on assembly line and guess who can afford the most sophisticated machines to do this...

For starters, a knife should be sharp right out of the box. Sure, if you're skilled with a whetstone, you can always fix an edge or change its profile to suit your preferences, but that's advanced stuff. Most home cooks won't be making those kinds of adjustments, not right after buying the knife, and not any time after that either. If they take it to a local knife sharpener* once a year for a touch-up, it'll be a miracle.

*Hopefully somewhere good and not one of those places where they grind away all the metal on a dry, coarse stone wheel.
The problem with this notion of most consumers not having skill or access to good professional sharpener, is that most people will then be doomed to buying yet another new (and expensive) knife every six month to get a sharp one. So that new super expensive wonderful knife really no better than $10 Wallyworld special after six month.

I will say honestly looking for a used better quality knife that somebody else gave up on is probably best way to go for a bargain. If you cant bring it back to life, then you are wasting your money on a factory new one, cause new one will get dull sooner than later. Its kinda weird but I have gotten so I can pretty well guess knife quality. Better knives have a denser feel to them for their size.

So yea I am not terribly impressed with this obsession with factory sharpness on a knife. Many I am sure could be greatly improved with minor amount work. Sometimes just stropping would do wonders. In these tests, be best if they hired an expert knife sharpener to start them all off on equal footing, then comment on cutting ability and how long they held an edge under similar conditions. Reality probably disproves it, but one would think anybody buying a $100+ knife is NOT going to treat it as disposable, so that initial factory sharpness isnt THAT important. Most kitchen knives for home use, at bare minimum will need sharpening at least every six month to a year. Knives used for commercial use obviously far more frequently. It should be more about how a knife performs once it is optimally sharpened and how long it holds its edge under similar conditions..
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Kinda fascinating to watch if knives interest you, otherwise go watch paint dry or grass grow. He made series of these restoration videos, everything done by hand, no power tools, no gadgets beyond his set whetstones and some sandpaper. He then auctions them off and money goes to charity. More to show people what is possible.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ah somebody mentioned the wokshop.com as place that sold old school decent carbon steel Chinese cleavers at a seriously reasonable price. And they do: Cleavers & Knives – The Wok Shop Whole lot better deal than trying to hunt through ebay or Amazon where nobody seems to have a clue the difference of high carbon steel and plain carbon steel with NO CHROMIUM added. And ones they sell are made to look unnecessarily "rustic". Carbon steel is rustic enough without added bumps and dents and weird black coatings and other misc. Anyway want a cheap carbon steel chef knife and dont mind the "cleaver" style its reasonable price. Just be careful, get one of the heavier ones and put sharp edge on it and it would have no problem removing any fingers that get in the way.

Oh also ran across on ebay somebody selling chef knife blanks in D-2 tool steel. D-2 has chromium in it but isnt really stainless. However the chromium is in form of large bits of chromium carbide, making it PITA to sharpen apparently. However once you get it sharpened, it apparently holds its edge like no other. Be interesting to try it. I had heard of it in pocket knives, but not in kitchen knives.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I had mentioned my opinion of best kitchen knife having full flat grind and even distal taper from handle to tip. Finally struck me as to why santoku knives feel so clunky after seeing review of an interesting full carbon steel CCK Chinese cleaver with distal tapering (around $80). Most cleaver or santoku type knives dont have distal tapering. This even includes a four star Zwilling santoku I got cheap with damage. Oh they are close enough to flat grind profile from spine to edge, but no distal tapering from bolster to tip. Look at the spine, it tells the whole story.

So since I hadnt done anything with that old noname carbon steel butcher knife my first wife brought into marriage other than prove it would easily sharpen scary sharp. Well it had developed bit rust so got out the little belt sander and thinned the blade to more flat grind and gave it more distal taper....

On cutting board diced an onion. Yea butcher knife isnt ideal for this but works if you work near side of board with handle off the board. But it did an amazing job, as good as best chef knives for the horizontal cuts after my modifications. Its a shame the Old Hickory "cooks knife" which in reality is a longish chef petty knife doesnt provide more knuckle room. I imagine it would respond to thinning and adding more distal taper in same way. Its cheapest knife close to being a carbon steel chef knife, around $20 for a "factory second". The Wokshop carbon steel cleaver next and with shipping it would be around $25. Truly be painful to try and give a cleaver type knife distal taper without a big sander. And third would be Fujiwara Kanefusa 240mm gyuto from S4 carbon steel, saw new one for $62. Then you go up to around $100 for reproduction carbon steel Sabatier and $150 for Misono "Swedish carbon steel" gyuto, then get into custom knives. Ignoring the cheap Pakistan knives which may or may not be useful and properly hardened. Seriously not lot actual carbon steel chef knives out there. Though lot people trying to claim high carbon stainless steel is carbon steel. And must be demand cause some really brutalized old vintage carbon steel knives really get bid up on ebay. Doesnt help that far fewer chef knife versions were sold. Back in day, sharp knives mostly used in home to butcher animals. Then paring knife or other small knife to peel and process veggies and fruit. Wasnt lot demand to chop food on cutting board. I am assuming many of older chef knives from that era were ones sold to restaurants or wealthy people with staff to prepare meals.

And even in reviews of people that buy these carbon steel knives, you see complaints of rust and "tarnish". They truly dont get the idea of full carbon steel and trade off made using it. And are baffled by suggestions not to put any sharp knife in dishwasher and that you keep them dry and wipe with oily rag.
 

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Also watching the guy, you need lot finesse, that magnet isnt super powerful, so any excess pressure going to wobble the knife.

This would be great at like $30 to $50, but close to $200, probably not. Still cool unique way of doing it that is pretty idiot proof.
The rolling sharpener idea is pretty cool. Its a really easy way to get a good, consistent angle on a wide blade knife.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The rolling sharpener idea is pretty cool. Its a really easy way to get a good, consistent angle on a wide blade knife.
It is kinda cool, unique design, though would have to try it in real world to get true feel for it. Looking cool and working well in real world not necessarily same thing. I have feeling the folks making this have more time and frustration on trying to protect their patent than actually selling many of them for crazy money. If it truly works as well as it would seem in video, then they really need get it under $50 to sell lot of them.

I recently got to try a knockoff of a worksharp manual sharpener, the kind that are basically a jig to hold knife at an angle while you go back and forth with diamond plate type sharpener of differing grits. It worked, especially nice on thin stamped knife, though lot plastic including the swivel so wouldnt expect lot longevity. Meaning it looked overpriced for what it was to me. But there are some just as good if not much better homemade versions on youtube if you feel need. I also suspect one could make your own plates by chopping up a zirconia oxide sanding belt of grit you want and gluing to metal or even wooden block. Strips of sandpaper wont last as long as good diamond plate, but will work ok if you dont need to sharpen bushel basket of knives every other day. Do search on youtube for "sharpening jig" and you will find many variations, some look more promising than others, but imagine all work to some degree and handy if you dont want to practice, practice, practice with using whetstone freehand.. I particularly got big kick out of one some guy used a salvaged ball bearing heavy duty furniture caster as his swivel. You could also use a heim joint. Though some made their own out of block wood sleeved with pieces steel tubing and bit oil to let rod slide through.
 

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Having cut my teeth early as a machinist turned tool maker turned on and on, I learned all the angles. (sorry for the puns ;) ). But with multi toothed tooling the controlled setups were not optional and the cutting angle critical for longevity, strength and finish. For wood or steel. But I freehand when sharpening knife blades. I have tried one of those kits that you clamp a knife blade into and there is a rod that screws into the various stones and through a guide to control the angle. What a PITB to use but it does what it is purposed to do. That's why I really liked the video you posted of this product.

But when it comes to a knife's blade one of the biggest problems is the steel. To me, most consumer kitchen duty knives are just not worth sharpening. And so many knives that you buy these days, regardless of the commercials and ratings, are just junk. But there are good ones made from REAL knife quality steel and heat treated appropriately for the task. An example is Knives of Alaska: Welcome The DW pought me their Ulu for my birthday 4 years back and its become my favorite for gutting, skinning and boning. I don't get cut or dinged as often either. D2 tool steel and they have their heat treatment down to an art form. About the only way to damage the edge is to drop the tool on a rock. I can do a whole critter and all that is needed is a few swipes on a strop, if that. Gosh I love a knife made with good steel!
 
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