If I had to choose between more immigrants/higher prices for food (just corn based) and a less polluted planet, guess which one I'd pick in a heartbeat. Yup. The less polluted planet would win. There are other things to eat. There is only one atmosphere.

 

Maybe instead we should move to a free market society, where corn etc. is not an artificially propped up comodity that is dumped in third world countries to keep the price high here for the corporate farms.

This would enable farmers in other countries to get a proper price for their product. Maybe it should now be a global market place.

 

Dang if people can't find the stupidest things in the worls to fuss about and then even say the things you do.
What in the world had immigration got to do with ethanol????????? :shrug:
This country would be far better off if all we used was "HOME GROWN FUEL".
Heck, we wouldn't even be at war right now. That's all about the oil whether anyone cares to believe it or not.
If we made our on fuel the arabs or whatever wouldn't hate us for trying to steal it from them, "AS THEY SEE IT" and we wouldn't be worried about them blowing our whole country up bit's at a time.
You don't have to support athanol because that is your choise. I for one think it's the best thing going on right now.
I don't care for the mexicans coming over the border the way they are, but it doesn't look as if it will ever stop.
At least this way, thay will be paying taxes, hopefully any way :shrug:

Read the thread on here called is this any good and go to the website outlined.

 

Sharon, DH and I just watched the Market to Market report and it makes me wonder if anyone thought about the broad based effects this ethanol push would have on our food prices. I have chicken and the price of a bag of feed went up $1.50! Now that talks to me. What if I had LOTS of chickens to feed. I say conserve the fossil fuel use. I like to eat. We'll see who's crying when the price of all food skyrockets

 

E85 doesn't reduce pollutants at all, unfortunately. It takes *more* fossil fuel energies to make ethanol than ethanol gives back. So ethanol isn't enabling us to create less pollution or burn less imported oil at all. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html.

What ethanol *does* do is raise the prices of grain, which is good for US farmers, and bad for everyone else in the world, since grains are traded on international markets. Personally, immigration is not an issue of great concern for me, but there's ample historical evidence that when people in Mexico get poorer, more of them come here. And the rise in corn prices caused by ethanol is causing real economic problems in Mexico.

Crafty, read the articles involved. We can't produce all "homegrown fuel" - we don't have enough land to feed ourselves and our cars. But even the "homegrown fuel" we're producing now is using plenty of imported oil and natural gas to produce it - more energy is going in than coming out. Take a serious look at the numbers.

The world has real limits - at the rate we're going, by 2011 we'll have enough ethanol plants in Iowa to use every single grain of corn grown there. Well, right now, we're eating that corn in the form of chicken and beef - so if we use it to make gas, our meat prices will rise. And if we want to keep eating meat, we'll import corn. Now where will we import corn from...Mexico (among other places). What will that do in Mexico (is doing already)? Raise the price of corn, which is the staple food of almost all the poor people in Mexico. And what will people in Mexico do when they get hungry? Come here.

Things have real consequences. This is one of them. If this is a consequence you are prepared to live with, ok. But at least be aware of it.

Sharon

 

Dang if people can't find the stupidest things in the worls to fuss about and then even say the things you do.
What in the world had immigration got to do with ethanol????????? :shrug:

Crafty,

One of the points of Sharon's post is the fact when people in Mexico can no longer afford corn products, they're going to start immigrating here in large numbers. Their average income is about $18 a day.

When the price of corn tortillas skyrockets, and they can't afford to feed their families, they'll leave to find a better life in the good old US of A. They'll be taking away jobs from citizens, getting free medical care and a free education for their children all on our tax dollars.

This is an article from the Chicago Tribune.

Mexicans Cope With Rising Tortilla Price

By PETER ORSI
Associated Press Writer
Published January 13, 2007, 8:52 PM CST

MEXICO CITY -- Soaring international demand for corn has caused a spike in prices for Mexico's humble tortilla, hitting the poor and forcing President Felipe Calderon's business-friendly government into an uncomfortable confrontation with powerful monopolies.

The rest of the article can be read here.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...usiness/sns-ap-mexico-expensive-tortillas,0,7620034.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed

 

Hogwash,Brazil RUNS on Ethanol.Point to any study you want that it costs more to make ethanol than it produces.

Brazil is DOING it on a National Level.

They sure must be stupid in Brazil not to know that.And the Cornell Eggheads who ARENT doing it know its a net energy loser.

BooBoo :gromit:

 

As for the ILLEGALS,heres a plan...ENFORCE the LAW and send them BACK!

BooBoo :gromit:

 

This sounds like one of those "if I sneeze here in my home there will be a hurricane in [insert coastal region here]" things. It makes sense but there is more to it than that.

I had someone in a supermarket this summer tell me sweet corn was more expensive because of ethanol. I didn't mean to laugh at them, but sweet corn and field corn aren't the same thing. Try switching them at a picnic and see if anyone notices. Anyways, back on topic...

I understand how this affects livestock feed and meat prices, but I really do think this is more complicated than this simple chain of cause and effect would lead you to believe. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is the main reason for the effect. I think there is a bigger picture here than this article implies.

Kayleigh

 

I am afraid Missouri Folk won't have much option. It stinks too because the Ethanol gas makes our vehicle run shotty.

 

Hogwash,Brazil RUNS on Ethanol.Point to any study you want that it costs more to make ethanol than it produces.

Brazil is DOING it on a National Level.

They sure must be stupid in Brazil not to know that.And the Cornell Eggheads who ARENT doing it know its a net energy loser.

BooBoo :gromit:

Well, Booboo, first of all, Brazil runs on *SUGARCANE* ethanol - a totally different animal. Doesn't need the quantity of inputs that corn does, is semi-perennial, so it doesn't need to be planted every single year, has more sugars in it (duh) so that it produces more total energy than corn ethanol. It is true that ethanol is a net energy winner - for Brazil. In large part, Brazil can fuel so much of its economy on ethanol because it uses less than 1/10th of the gas we do - so even if sugarcane grew all over the US (which it doesn't), and even if we were making ethanol out of sugarcane (which we mostly aren't), even if we made as much sugarcane as brazil does, it would produce about 1/30 - 1/20 of our liquid fuel needs.

*AND* Brazil has had a rise in grain prices and hunger because of its use of sugarcane as a fuel, *AND*, Brazil has been chopping down rainforest as fast as it possibly can in order to compensate for food growing land lost to fuel production. That is, when they started trying to increase their sugarcane growing, they took land away from food. Now Brazil has a lot of unused fertile land, unlike us. It just happens to be covered with rainforest - which desperately important to the life of the planet. But what's that compared to how important it is to keep the cars going ?

No one at Cornell has claimed that sugarcane ethanol is a net energy loser - it isn't. But we're not making ethanol out of sugarcane, we're making it out of corn, where it is a total loser - the only reason it is possible is because of the ridiculous subsidies we give to both industrial corn production and the ethanol industry. E85 creates *more* pollution when you add up all the energy costs. It burns *more* fossil fuels than straight gas. And it is only cheaper because of taxpayer subsidies (ie, it isn't really cheaper, either).

Again, if we drop our oil consumption by 90%, it is not unlikely that like the Brazilians, we could produce 1/2 of our liquid fuels at home. But since we use 10 times the fuel that they do, the acreage required to fuel our cars is... the same acreage required to feed us, and then some.

Do the math.

Sharon

 

It doesn't matter if there is zero net gain, as long as the difference can be made up with valuable by products (brewers grains). Heaven forbid American farmers make a buck.......

BTW, whining is VERY offputting.

 

Hogwash,Brazil RUNS on Ethanol.Point to any study you want that it costs more to make ethanol than it produces.

Brazil is DOING it on a National Level.

They sure must be stupid in Brazil not to know that.And the Cornell Eggheads who ARENT doing it know its a net energy loser.

BooBoo :gromit:

We aren't using the same materials as Brazil. Brazil uses sugar cane and another grass to make their ethanol and it makes 10x more ethanol than corn does. Just think about it...producing ethanol from corn produces 1/10th the energy as sugar cane. That lower production rate along with the fact that we grow corn using a lot of expensive inputs (insecticides, pesticides, fertilizers) made from petrochemicals means we are way behind Brazil in production.

The US spends more money & energy creating ethanol than it is worth. Sounds wrong? Yup, but who benefits the most? Big grain farmers and the big corporations that supply their inputs.

Around here most little farmers can't play the ethanol game because the ethanol plants don't store corn. Ethanol plants expect the farmer to store the corn until it is needed then deliver it to the plant. Most little farmers don't have that kind of storage capacity nor can they absorb the cost of trucking the corn to the ethanol plant. Small farmers sell their corn to a commodity buyer and that person/company makes the real profits in selling to the ethanol plant.

deb
in wi

 

LOL if cane is the way to go you can be sure the planted acreage will rise ,as for the net energy loss thing thats in the distilling proscess and can be fixed pretty easy.

 

Crafty,

One of the points of Sharon's post is the fact when people in Mexico can no longer afford corn products, they're going to start immigrating here in large numbers. Their average income is about $18 a day.

They are making more than I do!
Does that mean I should do a reverse immigration and go to Mexico so I can make more money?

 

Crafty,

One of the points of Sharon's post is the fact when people in Mexico can no longer afford corn products, they're going to start immigrating here in large numbers. Their average income is about $18 a day.

As opposed to like it is now, when large numbers of Mexicans are not immigrating?

 

LOL if cane is the way to go you can be sure the planted acreage will rise ,as for the net energy loss thing thats in the distilling proscess and can be fixed pretty easy.

We have devoted 790 million dollars in the last decade to "fixing" it - no luck so far.

I suspect we will grow more sugar cane for ethanol - but since sugarcane grows on comparatively little of American farmland, it isn't going to be a quick fix.

Sharon

 

What's wrong Sharon, price of chicken feed go up and you need someone to blame?

 

They are making more than I do!
Does that mean I should do a reverse immigration and go to Mexico so I can make more money?

Reverse immigration, to me, seems to not be the thing to do.

Maybe you don't have a job because one of them has the job you should have. :shrug:

 

As opposed to like it is now, when large numbers of Mexicans are not immigrating?

Yes, they're immigrating, in droves, because there are jobs here they can make good money at and send any extra money home, to support their families there. They've been doing it for years.

The lack of available corn in their area will only make the situation worse.

 

Yes, they're immigrating, in droves, because there are jobs here they can make good money at and send any extra money home, to support their families there. They've been doing it for years.

The lack of available corn in their area will only make the situation worse.

Bullcookies. Mexico raises it's own corn. This is akin to saying "don't eat beans, or the Mexicans will invade" You show a woefull lack of understanding of economics.

 

Bullcookies. Mexico raises it's own corn. This is akin to saying "don't eat beans, or the Mexicans will invade" You show a woefull lack of understanding of economics.

tink, Mexico had to import corn to have enough for their people. You must have not checked out or read the link in my original post, which by the way is now not working.

Here's three snippets from a similar news article.

By Peter Orsi, Associated Press | January 13, 2007

MEXICO CITY -- Soaring international demand for corn has caused a spike in prices for Mexico's humble tortilla, hurting the poor and forcing President Felipe Calderon's business-friendly government into an uncomfortable confrontation with powerful monopolies.

Economists also blame increased US production of ethanol from corn. The battle over the tortilla, the most basic staple of the Mexican diet especially among the poor, demonstrates how increasing economic integration is felt on the street level.

Yesterday, Economy Minister Eduardo Sojo said the government had authorized duty-free imports of 650,000 metric tons of corn to drive down tortilla prices, but he warned that any price relief would not come before February.

Sojo said the quotas include 450,000 metric tons of white corn from the United States under the North American Free Trade Agreement.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/la...merica/articles/2007/01/13/poor_in_mexico_feel_pinch_of_rising_demand_for_corn/

I believe the Associated Press wouldn't publish this if it weren't true.

If it makes you feel any better, in the article it was mentioned the Mexican government exported quite a bit of their corn without the expectation of a corn shortage due to the production of ethanol.

 

What's wrong Sharon, price of chicken feed go up and you need someone to blame?

What's wrong, tiknal, can't read all the hard words in the articles?

Sharon

 

Sharon, thanks for the informative articles. I definitely learned a few things. As for the economics of what you (and the articles) suggest, of course it makes perfect sense. I didn't hear any whining. Don't know why some people are so resistant to facts and logic.... :shrug: I can't wait to get out of the city, but for now I'm thankful that we can take the bus for our short commutes to work--I drive my car once a week or less, and it's gotten so infrequent lately that the car battery keeps dying on me. It's far from ideal based on my personal preferences, but living in the city has some great ecological benefits--and I have my garden, my dogs, my rabbit(s), and in the spring, I'll have my hens. Farmers markets and neighboring homesteaders help me fill in the gaps between what we produce and what we need. Anyway, with my low personal car use, I've fallen behind on the fuel debate--thanks for the reminders.

 

They are making more than I do!
Does that mean I should do a reverse immigration and go to Mexico so I can make more money?

I am disabled and it looks like I may stay that way for a while. The little check isn't snit here, but I would be rich down there. That might be a good idea. :shrug:
Wonder what a thousand acre farm goes for down there.
Let me see, at 75 bushells of corn per acre, I could export about 75 thousand bushels into the states and hire the 18 buck a day mexicans and give them a double time paycheck and get rich.
But then of course Bush & company would get 90% of that so that wouldn't work. :Bawling:

Boo Boo, Fantansymaker, Tinknal, *******, patnewmex, and planters wife, You can't explain some things to a wall. Some walls will listen after a while, but some just never hears :shrug: