Not.
Sorry. I think I would define it the way that woman did.

 

Sustainable agriculture is a way of raising food that is healthy for consumers and animals, does not harm the environment, is humane for workers, respects animals, provides a fair wage to the farmer, and supports and enhances rural communities.

Here are some good links about sustainable farming and definitions.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/agnic/susag.shtml
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_agriculture
http://www.sustainabletable.org/intro/whatis/
http://www.ncat.org/agri.html

 

"Organic" is political, "sustainable" is sensible.


Tell the old biddy to go pound sand.

 

"Organic" is political, "sustainable" is sensible.

You are so right. There is a lot of stuff in the grocery store labbeled organic that I don't trust. Organic has lost it's meaning since the gubmint got involved.

 

I would not buy from a person who used Round-Up, and I would not consider it sustainable. My understanding of sustainable is that it isn't always that feasible to get the certified organic label. When you're advertising your product as "sustainable", your customers are relying on trust when they buy your product. The woman got mad because she has purchased yoru product, believing it to be essentially organic (although you couldn't advertise it as such without getting certified), she probably paid more for it than she would for other chemically contaminated produce, and she feels like she was deceived and ripped off.

Also, it devalues everyone else's produce which is being advertised as "sustainable", because now it will seem like anything goes.

My suggestion is that you start using mulch (even cardboard and straw or old hay over it will work) and discontinue the Round-Up.

 

I would not buy from a person who used Round-Up, and I would not consider it sustainable. My understanding of sustainable is that it isn't always that feasible to get the certified organic label. When you're advertising your product as "sustainable", your customers are relying on trust when they buy your product. The woman got mad because she has purchased yoru product, believing it to be essentially organic (although you couldn't advertise it as such without getting certified), she probably paid more for it than she would for other chemically contaminated produce, and she feels like she was deceived and ripped off.

Also, it devalues everyone else's produce which is being advertised as "sustainable", because now it will seem like anything goes.

My suggestion is that you start using mulch (even cardboard and straw or old hay over it will work) and discontinue the Round-Up.

The fact that someone uses roundup in their ditch has absolutly NO relation to their produce. Any producer can use any chemical on areas other than that which they use for their product and still be organic. Please use your head when you make statements like this.

 

You are so right. There is a lot of stuff in the grocery store labbeled organic that I don't trust. Organic has lost it's meaning since the gubmint got involved.

AMEN Ladycat! The only authentic word for the way food was created and intended to be grown by God is ... NATURAL ... no quote marks necessary!

I think weeds only came about because mankind made the choice to leave the truest natural and sustainable Garden when they disobeyed and ate the ONE thing they weren't supposed to. As a result, we are given to toil for our food...and that includes ridding areas of weeds!

I suppose you could find someone with geese and/or goats...pen them up in specific areas and they'll take care of the weeds for you! Then till in the resulting fertilizer and plant flowers!

Don

 

The word organic has a legal meaning. Sustainable and natural do not. However, as someone who grows according to the organic theories, but who is not certified, I use both sustainable and natural (how natural is it anyway to grow things in rows!), but expect my customers to ask me exactly what that means to me or else I will tell them.
Perhaps if you are selling, you could define those words to your customers when you sell or have a sign explaining your growing practices.
As one poster said, if you are using round-up on a roadway that is not immediately adjacent to your garden (so that spray drift doesn't get into it), you could still claim that you are growing without sprays. Some farms have parts that are certified organic and other parts that are conventional.
So don't get all upset about the woman who went ballistic. But, make sure your customers understand the terms by your definitions so there are no misunderstandings.
Ann

 

The fact that someone uses roundup in their ditch has absolutly NO relation to their produce. Any producer can use any chemical on areas other than that which they use for their product and still be organic. Please use your head when you make statements like this.

My head says that people often say one thing and do another. Chances are extremely good that if they have Roundup and use it for one thing, they might for another. If you trust the person enough, you can go for it anyway....but considering the higher price...I would just skip it and buy from someone I knew did not ever use chemicals.

It's the same with CAE in goats. When a breeder has both positive and negative animals and the positive ones are quarantined, you're relying very heavily on trust if you buy stock from them.

My experience in real life has been that people very often are not honest, or they tell an awful lot of white lies. Therefore, if someone told me, "Well, we do use Roundup, but only in the ditch" and "Of course, there's a garden right next to it, but the round up never gets blown onto it, and we would never, ever use it on food crops", my reaction is going to be that I'll say "yeah, right...." and walk off.

Of course, she could just tell people that she never uses chemicals at all...

 

My head says that people often say one thing and do another. Chances are extremely good that if they have Roundup and use it for one thing, they might for another. If you trust the person enough, you can go for it anyway....but considering the higher price...I would just skip it and buy from someone I knew did not ever use chemicals.

It's the same with CAE in goats. When a breeder has both positive and negative animals and the positive ones are quarantined, you're relying very heavily on trust if you buy stock from them.

My experience in real life has been that people very often are not honest, or they tell an awful lot of white lies. Therefore, if someone told me, "Well, we do use Roundup, but only in the ditch" and "Of course, there's a garden right next to it, but the round up never gets blown onto it, and we would never, ever use it on food crops", my reaction is going to be that I'll say "yeah, right...." and walk off.

Of course, she could just tell people that she never uses chemicals at all...

A dishonest person would not admit to using roundup in the first place.

 

It's sort of like how I wouldn't let a drug user watch my kids even if he/she claimed that they only did them at night or when they were alone.

I have seen people who use chemicals around their place do stuff that baffles my mind. I don't care if the farm is certified organic- if I found that they were using herbicides along the driveway, they have lost my business. They're a fence sitter.

 

It's sort of like how I wouldn't let a drug user watch my kids even if he/she claimed that they only did them at night or when they were alone.

I have seen people who use chemicals around their place do stuff that baffles my mind. I don't care if the farm is certified organic- if I found that they were using herbicides along the driveway, they have lost my business. They're a fence sitter.

Bully for you. Still doesn't change facts.

 

We sell produce at a farmer's market, and are well on our way to being certified 'organic'.

Completely following the organic requirements, there are still a long list of things that can be sprayed on your land and your crops.

Organic certification only says that the seed is not GMO [nor hybrid], and that you did not use forbidden chemicals.

 

Putting it another way, I have a good friend who is an inspector for the Idaho dept of Agriculture. One of her jobs is to go around and ensure that the certified organic farms are sticking by the rules and to try to bust them if they're not. She routinely talks about farms that need to be busted because they are not playing by the rules, they're just trying to make the extra buck.

If you can't necessarily trust a farm that has gone to the expense and effort of getting their certification, then farms that are not organic but are trying to tap into the market without paying the fee and following the rules become even more suspect.

I've actually had people tell me that "Miracle Gro" is organic because all it's components are found in nature.

 

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

 

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

Well said, that is exactly how I have heard the phrase used.

'sustainable' you can produce such a crop and continue producing such a crop, year after year without adding anything onto your property, and in such a way that your property will never become infertile.

One workshop that we attended last year, very strongly made the argument that by hauling manure onto your farm is not a sustainable practice.

But neither is leeching all the nutrients from your soil.

 

One workshop that we attended last year, very strongly made the argument that by hauling manure onto your farm is not a sustainable practice.

That may be the accepted definition, but I see it as more of a community thing.

Look how much manure is getting dumped into waterways and lagoons. Is it not more in the spirit of sustainability to make use of that manure and let small farms haul it home and use it? Sustainability (IMO) makes the best use of resources, even when that includes bringing products onto the farm from outside sources when said products would otherwise go to waste.

 

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

I agree with the above......but is that enough ?
Would not sustainable mean no fossil fuels, no technology that cannot be produced at home, no annual seed or plant purchases, etc....?
Sustainable means sustainable... without conditions, exceptions, or dependencies upon the participation, performance or input of ANY outside source.
How much longer do we really have before this is no longer optional ?

 

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm

This website clearly states the goals and key issues of sutainable agriculture and addresses the round-up question in the 10th paragraph of the plant production guidelines. I am commited to sustainable practices and agree with the principles laid out and appreciate the ability to address any farm situation from a profit - loss stand point. SA tries to encourage stewardship while understanding the importance of profit. I see SA as a mindset of farm stewardship not a idealogical stance with you-all be darned if you don't agree. I have adapted multi-species forages for nitrogen fertilizer reduction, I now only use conservation tillage or no-till practices into warm season stubble. I feel I am a sustainable farmer as described in this website, I do use round - up, I buy it 10 gallons at a time. I use electric fencing to use forage based pasturing and rotational grazing for reduced fertilizer input and soil erosion - and practice seasonal stocking rates. The round-up is necessary for the cross fencing to be practical. The practical is the key word. The SA stance is a practical step or method for stewardship of the land. I advertise SA methods for both livestock and cropping and feel no need to apologize for some necessary compromises.

 

I think the term "sustainable" has been bandied about, and means different things to different people. (some would say the term has been "co-opted").

Cabinfevers definition seems to draw on environmental sustainability concepts, and seems to have a similarity to the concept of permaculture.

Big business, both agribusiness and other sectors, have taken the term sustainable to mean economically sustainable, and the ability to sustain profits. This is clearly a different thing.

As RedHogs points out, the sustainable agriculture movement is looking for a happy medium that will bring these ideas into balance. I think the movement has some merit.

I read some stuff by John Ikerd, a professor emeritus from the U of Iowa on sustainable ag. He says that if we could have truly transparent labelling, the market would segment into many more niche markets. There would be room for people who want organic to find it, for consumers who want low-input products, for consumers who want humanely raised meat, free-range eggs, or even conventional big-ag cheap food. This seems to make a lot of sense to me.

 

ET1 SS, Organic certification does not exclude hybrids. They cannot be treated, and certifying agencies hope for organic production of those seeds, but there is a default that if a grower has looked in three normally organically oriented seed companies and cannot find what they need, they can use non-organically grown seed...just not GMO or treated seed.
And, of course, different certifiers take the federal standards and MAY make them even more restrictive. It depends on the certifiers.
When buying local "organic" produce, you usually can also go to the farm and talk with the farmer to determine for yourself if their production methods agree with yours.
Let's not say all organic labeled stuff is hogwash. There are many people who are truly into organics, knowing it also feeds their own families.
Ann

 

something else to consider when you talk about sustainable is are you talking about one farm or a coop?

If one farm then I think CFs definition sets it straight.

Something to consider though is things will most likely have to be brought in at first to rebuild the soils (particulary if the previous owner didn't take care of what was there). Then theres the issue of leaching from groundwater runoff.

To me sustainable means using practices that harm the land as little as possible, these practices should keep the health of the land relatively balanced so very low (if any) imputs are need to produce a steady crop year after year.

Organic means no pesticides/herbicides/ growth hormones/etc. You can be sustainable and still not be Organic.

Sustainable is grass roots while organic has become political. Organic is a good thing but has become nothing more than a label that agri-business has exploited till its meaningless.

 

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "sustainable grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."
__________________

Said it well.
My understanding goes along with his. Sustainable means you dont require outside inputs. Its basicly a closed loop system. You can provide for yourself. Seeds would come from seed savings, water could come from rain catchment systems, compost would come from shredded newspaper, food scraps, weeds, leaves, and manure from farm animals, everything comes from the farm and nothing leaves the farm. There is very little waste because everything is used in some other form. This is the most ideal form of sustainability. Obviously there are different levels of sustainability and some of us are more sustainable than others. Many people think organic and sustainable are the same thing obviously they are not, You can be very wasteful and still be organic. You can be ustainable but not organic. This is why our government stepped in (like it or not) to set a definition of the word organic. While I personally dont approve of all the goings on in the USDA and FDA and NOP standards at least they drew a line and said here is a definition and guidelines. The term sustainability is up in the air to be whatever you make of it.

 

Completely following the organic requirements, there are still a long list of things that can be sprayed on your land and your crops.

Organic certification only says that the seed is not GMO [nor hybrid], and that you did not use forbidden chemicals.

exactly! Which is why the exorbitant prices being charged for "organic"foods at wally world and other grocery stores is such a joke. People are throwing money away just to make themselves feel better. I have to laugh every time I see a box of organic cheerios or corn flakes. yeah....right.

 

exactly! Which is why the exorbitant prices being charged for "organic"foods at wally world and other grocery stores is such a joke. People are throwing money away just to make themselves feel better. I have to laugh every time I see a box of organic cheerios or corn flakes. yeah....right.

Me too. I don't trust most of the companies that have organic products. Much of the stuff labelled organic is NOT organic.