Clumpy droppings

Discussion in 'Goats' started by homemominmilton, Feb 18, 2005.

  1. homemominmilton

    homemominmilton Member

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    Hi,

    I have a nubian doe that I bred in December. This is her first time and she was about a year old when bred. I made the mistake of taking her to the location of the buck and leaving her there with him for a few days. When she came back, she had a loose stool. I thought it might be from the stress or change in diet since I worm her with an herbal wormer weekly and have never had this problem with her before. I made sure that I continued her wormings on schedule after her return and it took a while, but her stool became firmer and normal berries appeared after about a week or two. However, since then, she has been clumping a good bit. I've made sure she gets plenty of roughage (green leaves - we have some evergreen oaks here that she loves so I've been pruning those for her). My question is, could this be a symptom of pregnancy? If not, does anyone have any suggestions?

    Thanks,
    Suzanne
     
  2. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    I am inclined to think that it is the stress of being moved about and any changes in diet also. I'm not sure if goats get shipping fever like cattle, or if there is a caprine equivalent to bovine viral diarrhea.
     

  3. Shazza

    Shazza Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Suzanne...I don't use herbal wormers so I dont know how affective they are in worm control...but it sounds like worms. And/or green feed will do that to, if she isnt used to the evergreen oak branches. If you stopped feeding the branches and uped her hay...when her poop is pebbles again try the branches, you will soon know whether it is them or not.

    Just another thing...here there is no way we would join a 12mth old Nubian. :)
     
  4. mpillow

    mpillow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are chemical wormers that are safe for pregnancy...but you could also combine Diamataceous Earth with your herbal wormer.

    I personally am not a big fan of chemicals but -30 temps in the winter do wonders for worm loads...I have use the herbal stuff and now I am trying DE. I did have to worm chemically after a very wet summer.

    It is also thought that pregnancy causes worms to go into remission and then hatch as soon as kidding happens which is why most folks worm prior to breeding and right after kidding.

    She may be stressed and some probios may help even her out as well as her having access to mineral salt and baking soda free choice....and be sure she is drinking plenty by sweetening her water.

    How big is this girl? Just Over 80lbs is a good 1st breeding wt I usually wait until thay are 18 months old to breed and more like 100 -120lb
     
  5. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    I would say worms, sounds like to it me, worm over load. I don't use herbal wormers, for that very reason, and when in milk, I don't want to drink it either. With the herbal wormers, you are drinking it you know, and they are not as effective, so I don't play around here.
    How big was this doe when you bred her, ?she might be a tad young for that. my dh, just bought a doe, that I had to nurse back to health, because she wasn't taken care of, and was bred to soon. unless, you have tons of experince, I would not breed, at less than 120 pounds. which would be closer to the two year age. IT is taking a big chance .This little gal, had some mastitis and was in poor shape, she was thin, with a worm over load. It is taking many hours of work, and meds. to get her back to where she should be. I dryed her up, and am trying to get her back healthy again. I had to really work with her, and we aren't done yet. I wish you the best of luck, and don't for get the baking soda for her, and her loose minerals. take some of her clumps to the vet, and have him check it. it doesn't cost much, and then yo uwill know for sure. To much corn can do it also. good luck and keep us posted.
     
  6. homemominmilton

    homemominmilton Member

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    I had no idea she was too young to breed. She was definitely over 80 lbs when bred, probably around 90 or so. I was advised that she was ready to breed at 9 mths if over 80 lbs.

    Thank you all for the advice, I'm a novice at this (obviously) and really appreciate you taking the time to help out.

    Suzanne

    P.S. She does love corn, I'm going to try cutting back on that first.
     
  7. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A year old is not too young to breed, imo. I try to breed mine over 10 months, but have bred younger. You do want at least 80 pounds on her. Sounds like she is fine in size.
    My first thought with clumps was too much green food, maybe out on wet grass, or more than usual. I am not sure that oak leaves are good for a goat at all, and was waiting to see comments on that.
     
  8. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    NO , oak leaves are not good for goats, and will make them sick or worse, had to cut a couple of them down to get them away from the goats. but they love pine, and maple leaves and many others.
     
  9. homemominmilton

    homemominmilton Member

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    Maybe yours are a different variety of oak. She has always eaten these and prefers them over other vegetation. Also, on the farm where she was born, the pasture is covered with the same varieties of oak trees all clean of branches as far up as the goats can reach.

    Suzanne
     
  10. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My goats also love live oaks(is that what you have?) But I just had read that oak is not good for them. We don't have any close to the goat pen here, though.
     
  11. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    It's fine for you to try the herbal wormer after you have your management down. But after the stress of a move, after weaning and after kidding, you simple have to chemical worm or fecal sample with a vet (or learn yourself). Then once you have worms in your area under control, than of course try DE, try herbal womrers, and perhaps with pasture rotation, daily barn cleaning, you could keep worm numbers low enough not to have to herbal worm. But take your herbal worm information from someone who lives in your area, someone up north does not have our problems with cocci and worms that we have.

    It just shows how everything everywhere is different...my girls live on 13 acres of pines, oaks (both red, white, live and pin) and hickorys. And all my does are bred at 7 months, 80+ pounds, kidding on their first birthdays. Vicki
     
  12. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    stress of moving could have activated the worms. i think for people in the north were the ground freezes very good and a good herd management herbal wormer might be ok. i doubt that it will be enough in warmer climates. if she was used to the diet she is getting now with out problems i would say that is not the reason for the plop poop. do you feed loose mineral with sufficient copper in it? cooper deficency can also have loose poop.
    i would do a fecal test for worms. and like vicki said if the doe was at least 80 pound and good in flesh there is no reason why you shouldn't had breed her.
    and loose poop is not a sign for pregnancy. :no:
    susanne
     
  13. rhjacobi

    rhjacobi Well-Known Member

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    Hi homemominmilton,

    I see your location is in Florida so your climate is probably a lot like ours - warm/hot humid and wet for a good part of the year which is great for growing parasites in abundance. Your not likely to have any extended period of severe cold to kill off parasites either. If you have a hot DRY period, this will help kill off parasites.

    We have never used herbal wormers, so we don't have much experience there. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good - we just don't have first hand experience. I do know of people in are area that use it in conjunction with chemical wormers and are pleased with the results.

    Our experience with chemicals suggests that there isn't one wormer that kills all the different types of parasites. Therfore we have to use different wormers throughout the year. Since you are in Florida, I would suspect that you will experience a similar situation. Since you have progressed from a loose stool to clumping, there has been some progress in eradicating the parasites, but the load is probably still a little heavier than it should be.

    Long distance internet diagnosing can have its problems, so a vet consultation is still your best bet.

    Bob
    Lynchburg, TN.

     
  14. witchysharon

    witchysharon Well-Known Member

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    I have used herbals for years. They are as, if not more, effective as chemical wormers, plus an added bonus is the worms/parasites do not ever develop a resistance to herbal wormers as they can to chemical ones. The wormer I use has wormwood, fennel, black walnut (of course not to be used for horses) to name just a few of the herbs. I also offer the goats fresh/dried thyme leaves, nettle and mustard seeds and whole cloves, the volatile oils in cloves will penetrate the hard shell of the parasite eggs, and kill them before the eggs ever hatch. I never have a problem with worms, and when i have fecal counts done the number of worms is very low and less than when I did use chemical wormers. You can read a portion of an article about herbal wormers that was in the UNITED CAPRINE NEWS
    http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/info/report.shtml

    or ask to have a copy of the complete article sent to you
    http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/info/worms.shtml

    Before chemicals were ever developed, herbal remedies were used. In fact, goats in the wild will seek out herbs that will kill internal parasites. In fenced pastures, parasites can build up and continually re-infect the herd. Good herd management/rotating pastures helps interrupt the cycle. Clean pen areas, clean, fresh food, sanitary milking areas, sterile instruments, clean water, rotation of pastures/dry lots are all good ways of keeping worm populations down. And nutrition also plays a big role in worm loads. A goat with a healthy immune system is better able to resist coccidia/worms.

    As far as oak leaves, I believe the jury is still out on that one. Oak leaves contain tannins, and it is believed that the tannins in fresh, green oak leaves are soothing to sick goats. The species most often affected by oak toxicosis is cattle. Goats and swine are more resistant to poisoning, and horses are rarely affected. We have two 150 year old oaks (a red oak and a white oak) and my goats eat some leaves almost every day. I have not ever seen any distress or signs of poisoning. I think the diet would have to consist of 50% or more of oak leaves/acorns/sprouts/young shoots to cause a problem. The key is moderation, as it is with feeding your goats grain. Too much of any substance can cause a problem. You don't want them to gorge on just oak leaves. If your goats are eating good forage/browse/hay/pasture, eating some oak leaves/acorns/sprouts/young shoots should pose little risk. In autumn when the leaves start to fall, we use a leaf sweeper as we mulch the leaves/acorns with the tractor and haul it all out to the compost pile. This helps keep the goats from eating too many of the leaves. Animals tend to eat oak only out of necessity or boredom with their current diet, so providing adequate and nutritious feed in the spring when the oak leaves bud out and again in the fall when leaves and acorns drop, the incidence of toxicosis should be minimized or eliminated.
     
  15. witchysharon

    witchysharon Well-Known Member

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    I should mention that wormwood can cause menstrual bleeding, and induce the loss of uterine lining which may cause a miscarriage, you should check the herbal wormer and if it contains wormwood, do not use on pregnant does. It can be used proir to breeding and the day right after the doe kids.
     
  16. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Just curious. How many goats do you have? How much property? How often do you rotate pastures? Do you milk your does? What area of the US are you in? What kind of worm eggs are you seeing at fecal? Are you saying you used to use chemical wormers, and now only use herbal wormers, so after the chemcial wormers got your numbers low, the herbs keep the does low, or have you seen lowered numbers on fecal from the herbal wormers.

    And you do know that the information on the herbal wormer is from the folks selling it. A childs science fair project in which Ivermectin was used injected at label dosages, and then said that it didn't kill as many tape worms as the herbal wormer. First you do not inject Ivermectin for stomach worms, you certainly do not use it at cattle labeled dosages, and it is not even for tapes. Thank you for the woomword information, I knew this from a talk at Texas A&M and could never remember exactly what was said about it an abortion.

    Vicki