CL question

Discussion in 'Goats' started by silvergirl, Nov 7, 2006.

  1. silvergirl

    silvergirl Well-Known Member

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    Hi, all,
    My Sadie girl has CL - the disease that has the abcesses that burst...

    I was told by a goat dairy farmer that you cannot have CL free goats on land that has EVER held a CL goat - because the land itself is tainted... and the disease free herd will catch CL even if there is no direct contact with the infected goat(s)...

    I want to have a CL free herd and want to go with Saanen goats, which I can purchase locally... So - not only do I love my Sadie girl, but it will be months before her kids (she is pregnant now and due sometime soon) are mature enough to harvest for their meat. I will not be in position to buy more goats for a good while, too, so I don't want to find another home for Sadie in the forseeable future since she is a pretty good milker once she freshens - at the same time, we are in the process of finalising our land purchase and I'd like to take her with us to the new property...

    So - is it true that the land becomes 'tainted'? If that is true, if I keep Sadie in a small paddock, with her own little shed - separate from the area I eventually intend to house and pasture the CL free goats, will they be safe from the disease? The last question - do the babies automatically have CL, too? Is it passed through the blood stream to the unborn babies or do the kids have to have contact with an abcess itself?

    I appreciate your help, guys...
    silvergirl
     
  2. HappyFarmer

    HappyFarmer Well-Known Member

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    IMO I don't think building a separate pen for your CL positive goat would work for a long term solution. Goats tend to escape occasionally (some frequently!).

    It's my understanding that CL can contaminate your farm for as long as 10 years. I don't think they really know how long, exactly. I understand that you can "manage" cl abscesses by injecting them with Formalin. To do this you would have to watch for abscesses & treat them just before they are ready to burst. This is one way to control the pus from contaminating the soil.

    I beleive there is also a vaccination either coming to the market or new to the market that can be created specifically for your goats/farm. Vaccinated goats, however, test positive for CL. I imagine this would be a bit costly just for one goat.

    There is also a sticky on CL that may have some more info. Sorry I can't help with your other questions.

    I do believe that if I was in your position I would cull the doe & start with a disease free goat when I moved to my new farm. Alternatively it's nice to know there are options.
    HF
     

  3. DocM

    DocM Well-Known Member

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    First of all, not all abcesses are CL. Many times, my goats knock each other around and end up with an abcess on their chin, looks like CL, but they've been tested as free. Have her tested if you think she's CL positive. If you ever plan to breed out your goats or show them, keep in mind that they can pick up CL anywhere, even on someone's shoes when they enter your barn. It's really not worth the worry - it isn't contagious to humans and it isn't fatal to goats. Personally, I am glad my herd is CL and CAE free, because it's a bonus to be able to advertise them as such to sell, but it's a pain to test each year and it isn't a dangerous disease. Good luck.
     
  4. ChickenMom

    ChickenMom Well-Known Member

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    From what I understand the land is only tainted if an abcess bursts there. The puss is what's contagious. We had a doe with CL, we didn't realize it when we bought her. We took her to the vet and had the abcess taken care of and tested. It was positive for CL, at the time she had twins ready to wean so we butchered her and kept the twins, they are both CL free. We inspected everything during butcher and she had no internal abcesses. Only if there is an abcess that bursts in the uterus or udder can the kids get it or if an external abcess bursts and they are exposed to the puss. She was kept in quarentine the entire time we had her and all processes that had to do with the abcess were not on our land, not even butchering her. We just don't want to mess with it.

    If you want to keep her just have the abcesses removed in tact before they burst and you shouldn't have any problems. She will have to be kept away from the rest of the herd and it would probably be harder to sell goats if you have a CL positive on your land.
     
  5. HappyFarmer

    HappyFarmer Well-Known Member

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  6. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    CL can also be spread through the feces if an abcess forms along the digestive tract. So an internal abcess can contaminate your new property. (you wouldn't be able to know there was an abcess)
    If you want to get more goats within the next 10 years, I would say cull her and go for registered, clean stock.
    It wouldn't really be feasable to keep her elsewhere on the property; she would hear the other goats and get lonely and depressed. Also, if she gets an abcess that bursts, internal or external, and then you walk from her pen to the other goat's pens, you could transmit it that way too. If you really want a CL free herd, probably the ontly way to do so is to cull your doe.
     
  7. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    the only way to find out for sure is to have your doe tested, keep her isolated until she kidded and if test comes back positive butcher her or have her eutanized. it is not polite to pass this animal on to somebody else.
    if you want to keep this doe, shave her and controll her very regular for any new forming abcess. get the abcess removed from your vet before it can burst.
    cl can be transmitted to humans too. so be very careful if you have to handle any open abcess.
    this is a disease i don't and will not want to mess with.

    you can raise her kids with the bottle, away from her. no need to butcher the kids
     
  8. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    We had CL back when it was thought to be a cancer that effected some bloodlines in some herds. My does at the time of testing for CL and CAE were to valuable to my livelyhood...milk, show, export...for me to just kill them like many people did. Instead I used a large export to build a new dairy barn. The old does were brought into the new milkroom only to be milked, and lived their lives out in the old barn...new doelings were gleaned from the positive moms via lutelyse to bring them into labor for while we were home and not off showing. No kids were saved from the meat sale..... does or not, if they were not delivered physically by me.

    Strict quranteen was used, including no dogs having access to the pens, no free range chickens, boots for the old barn and equipment for the old barn...the pen was made super small.

    The does lived out their lives there until older, most being put down as they became unproductive, we did lots of necropsies on them, with lots of internal abscess found even though most after the initial abscesses or the periodic one after kidding, never had abscess externally. Yes they were cornybacterium we had them tested at UC Davis. We were of the remove whole before bursting set...slicing and dicing just passed this on faster, but even saying that we missed them in the long hair during the winter of our Togg LaMancha crosses, who always had them in the long hair of their neck/brisket/flanks.

    It is alot of work, it is alot of being known as anal, for not letting folks into the pens, not family, not friends. Nobody was allowed in with these goats.

    After the last were put down, the pen was fallow for several years, the gates shut, after telling someone I was going to burn the barn down, they came and took the barn. We scraped the area out with a tractor, took down all the fence and burnt the fence posts. Even the trees next to the barn where the girls rubbed and layed were cut down and burnt for firewood. And yes my husband thought I had lost my mind.

    Several years alter I did have some boer crosses on this property and never had any problems. And today....it has portable dog kennels in it for my husbands ridgebacks...still none of my goats on it...guess that is anal afterall? :)

    Quaranteen her into the smallest area you feel comfortable with. Limit her access to everything. Test all your goats not just her for both CL and CAE. Because in dairy stock that comes from dairies they likely have both. Glean clean kids off of them....in this instance cull means kill...please don't pass this nitemare onto someone else. Vicki
     
  9. topside1

    topside1 Retired Coastie Supporter

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    Silvergirl, just a brief statement. I had two does with active abscess, called a vet in to test and diagnose. Neither goat had CL, just wounds from thorns, old wire, horn butts or whatever....Get checked out or tested by the experts before full blown worry kicks in...Tennessee John
     
  10. rranch

    rranch Well-Known Member

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    It's true. Be very careful with CL. You...YOU can transmit it, get it, etc. Any living breathing mammal can get it. And yes your property becomes contanimated, Please don't go to any public fairs and spread it. That stuff scares the weeby jeebies out of me. Stay back- stay-back-stay back. I'm sorry about the attachment to your goat but you have a choice to make and I am glad its not me. I'm really sorry for you:(
     
  11. Jillis

    Jillis Well-Known Member

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    I have a beautiful doe that got a lump on the front of her neck on the side of her windpipe---exactly the location for a CL abcess. I watched it carefully, and it has gradually diminished until it is almost completely gone now. I am having her tested prior to breeding her, but I don't think that a CL abcess ever diminishes, it always grows until it bursts.

    You really can't ever know w/o a blood test, though.

    If I'm wrong about any of that, someone please correct me.
     
  12. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    if i see an abcess in a susbicious area i would have it taken out from the vet and have the content tested. no guessing allowed for this disease.
    jillis was that one of the kids you got in spring from the dairy? be very careful.
     
  13. goatmarm

    goatmarm Well-Known Member

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  14. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    I am having her tested prior to breeding her, but I don't think that a CL abcess ever diminishes, it always grows until it bursts.

    You really can't ever know w/o a blood test, though.
    ................................

    The abscess can burst inside when it is near the throat (where it is coughed on herd mates), or the udder, it can burst into the milkglands. Testing the lump is the only 100% accurate test, we had a doe Scotia that was positive for CL via Abscess and negative on blood. Sorry but blood, unless they have been vaccinated or have an active abscess before it is walled off, are worthless negatives for me. Vicki
     
  15. HappyFarmer

    HappyFarmer Well-Known Member

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    Ditto what Vicki Said.

    I also understood that the CL was confirmed, as it was a statement of having CL, not a question as to whether it was CL or not.... By all means if she wasn't tested to confirm she should be by contents of the lump.
     
  16. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    Yes, sometimes the blood tests come back negative, just like sometimes the CAE tests come back negative when they are truly positive. Since I haven't had an external abcess in my herd, I can't test that way, though I would if I ever got one. I have blood tested once and will again in a couple months, and then yearly. Since that's the most I can do, I'm happy with that at least. Wish there was some 100% way it could be tested for, though... :(
     
  17. silvergirl

    silvergirl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the input, everyone... it is much appreciated...

    Sadie has not actually been tested for CL but we did take her to a vet and have her abcess treated and the vet said it looked like CL... so I assumed she knew what she was talking about... also, the man we bought Sadie from switched her for another doe we had actually agreed to buy but it was nighttime when we picked her up and I thought we must just have been mistaken - then we found the lump on her neck the next day... so, again, I assumed he had passed her on to us on purpose... altho I had not heard of CL at that point and just thought she'd had an injury that had become infected...

    So I need to get her tested. Will do.

    After they are born, I can get the kids tested and see if they are positive or not, too... I am glad I will not have to automatically kill the babies... I'd like them to grow up - our Matt had a great life and was a joy to have around until he turned about three months old - got a bit big for his britches then, but was still much loved until it was time to put him down and harvest the meat...

    I would not pass Sadie on to anyone without letting them know she had CL, if she does turn out to be positive and we do decide to look for a home for her rather than put her down or try to keep her separate from the rest of the herd... she's been a good girl for us, and if I could find someone who didn't mind her being ill, and wanted to pamper the heck out of her - well, that would be better from my perspective than killing her...

    We probably have a two month window before we close on the property and can move onto the land - we need to build a shelter for our animals and find something for ourselves to hang out in until we make a start on our house... so I still have some time with Sadie, and her babies will be able to nurse for a while before we have to separate them... I am glad for that... I'll miss her a lot, if we have to let her go...

    Thanks again...
    silvergirl
     
  18. DocM

    DocM Well-Known Member

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    If she's positive, the babies can't nurse. You need to separate them immediately, and bottle feed them ONLY pasteurized milk, including colostrum. It's the only way to be 100% sure they won't contract it. If she is positive, she may have internal abcesses in her mammary system. Many people do this already, in order to stop the spread of CL and CAE. I know, it's harsh, but the kids do fine.
     
  19. topside1

    topside1 Retired Coastie Supporter

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    IMO, you may want to consider taking your goat to another VET. The VET guessed that it looked like CL, without sending a sample off to get conformation...UNSAT,,,I'd be shopping around and soon...Tennessee John
     
  20. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    i think you might have missunderstood the seriousness of this disease.
    cl can be transmitted to humans too and therefore this animal should be destroyed if test comes back poritive.
    kids are not allowed to nurse. if you want healthy offspring from her you need to attend the birth and remove the kids immediately without the dam licking the kids.
    i know it sounds cruel but it would be unresponcable to pass this doe on to somebody else and destroy that persons future with disease free animals or even worse get sick.