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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, here you go, have at it!
I'm not going to cloud judgement with what I think. I just want honest opinions please, and thank you!
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He does not look bad at all, what is his age? Do you own his mama? Do you milk her? Is she a good producer. These are just a few of the questions that I would want answers to if I was considering him to be the "other half of my goat herd". He looks like a Nubian. I am not a goat expert but I do like the Nubians.
Dsmythe
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, he is a Nubian. About 6mo buckling. Small, imo, but his dam is a beautiful big girl and a good milker, gorgeous udder.
Would like structural critique tho please, as I'm having a hard time now justifying keeping him :)
 
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Is he at least 70lbs? Seems small and fine boned. If you want him breeding at a reasonable age, a growthy non stunted buck will be up to the task while a stunted or poor growing buck may not be interested. He does appear steep rumped. Kids are very hard to evaluate and these are not the best of pictures to evaluate conformation. He is standing very awkwardly in the second pic. He does look decently wide and appears he might track straight in the front end. Looks to have nice breed character.

Far, far more important are the sisters, paternal female relatives, and maternal female relatives. I do look at male relatives too, but usually to look at daughter average milk production, trait averages, and offspring show/production performance awards.

Also more importantly, does he have traits and performance that will better your herd?

If you aren't convinced he's the buck for you, then that speaks volumes to me. If you're looking to improve, can a better buck be found to take his place? As someone adequately said, he is going to be half of the genetics of a kid crop. He better be working to improve them, or at least be suited to doing so, as best as you can determine. Unfortunately it doesn't always go that way, but you hedge your bets when you do your research first.

I usually utelize adgagenetics.org, especially the cdcb link for production. I also use adga.org subscription reports to evaluate whole pedigrees with performance info in a rather eagle eye view of the whole pedigree. I often delve into each animal in the pedigree.
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for your response! I was almost hoping someone would say he'll grow into his rump.. lol. My current girls have good to okay rumps, so my herd could use improvement in that area, not another 'okay'.
I'm wondering if I should wether him and try to grow him out or sell as a buck? He does have good lines, on both sides. Kastedmur mostly and everyone has stars or +B's.
 

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"good lines" is meaningless to me in and of itself. Herd names are nice, but dont' influence my decision to buy, really. For some it may, and I certainly see the phrase used a lot. Oftentimes I find those with 'nice lines' have no accomplished relatives in the recent pedigree, lol.

Sounds like your buck kid has production records behind him. While that's great, keep in mind that the requirements for earning a *M are MINIMUMs. It is much harder for the HUMAN to keep up with regular testing and herd management, than it is for most goats to achieve a *M designation. ;) What I mean is, being on milk test takes commitment by an owner - and the amounts produced to earn a star are really rather minimal and the vast majority of animals put on test should be able to surpass them if they're worth their feed in the slightest. An animal that barely eeps above the minimum production required for AR status, does not impress me at all. When I'm buck shopping or semen shopping, I look for the exemplary production lines. I do like the *M designations as it tells me immediately that there should be production records to be found should I go looking on the ADGA genetics website/CDCB link.

As for his rump, bucks do innately look different than does IMO - rarely are buck rumps shaped the same as doe rumps. Female rumps tend to change a lot with freshenings as well. Simple difference between males and females. More important is what did his DAM/SISTERS/GRANDDAMS rumps or traits look like? Are they appraised or have you seen them in person (and feel confident at evaluating that trait definitively?) If you see him in motion and think his rump sure is awful steep, then it probably won't magically get a lot better with age. ;)

I can't tell you to wether him, but my motto is that if I'm not sure, he should probably be banded. Leaving bucks intact is all too common IMO. Only the best dams or dams with the highest potential should be considered to produce potential herdsires. I always believe that a buck kid is BORN predisposed to being castrated, and only a select few have the potential to stay intact.
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #8
Wow, so much to think about in selecting a herdsire.
Fortunately, I did see his dam and maternal aunts. They were healthy, large and very dairy looking animals, although dry at the time I saw them. Udder pics did look very nice, to me lol.
My thinking with this buckling was to improve the breed characteristics of a couple of my grade girls, and of course improve production. I suppose in my naivete, I thought that the star M's and +B's would pretty much guarantee a quality animal with the traits I wanted :/
I suppose it is back to the drawin board, then!
Thus buckling I bought, again basically because the sellers used their herd for commercial dairy and their does dis look good. He gained about 5lbs in the first week I brought him home, so my thoughts were that he probably wasn't getting what he needed and is runty or stunted. He continues to grow like a weed, and is now almost as big as my yearling girls.
I think I'll hold off buying any more buckling until I've done more research, ha. Unfortunately, this was actually the only one I found reasonably close that did have production records on their herd. I'll have to widen my search, I suppose.
 

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Just FYI, one of my fav bucks was purchased in pitiful shape. At about 5 months old he was about 50 to 60% in size, no socialization, and horrid skurs...but from good lines and no significant parasites. Had cosmetic dehorning and spent lots of time with him. He ate well, supplemented with vitamins and minerals. It took over a year to get that boy in shape, normal size today and he makes the most beautiful babies. You never know what the investment of time and energy will do. Your guy looks good.
 

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Do you want me to take a peek at his pedigree to help you get an idea of what I personally look for? If you don't want to share it that's fine - If you're unfamiliar with the CDCB portion of ADGA genetics, or the subscription reports, I'm willing to show you how I look at one of my bucks that I own in my AI tank, and my decision making process. The CDCB links and the subscription reports are extremely powerful tools for evaluating a pedigree.

You already have him and are turning him around, patience may be key here. I don't know how many of my absolute favorite animals I despaired over during their gangly teenage months and first freshenings. ;) Better pictures and a little more size, and you may be signing a different tune with him! If you earnestly liked his female relatives and like their production and the pictures of their udders, then he may be worthy of being kept around to see how he matures this year.

Have you considered appraisal or DHIR to evaluate your own does and learn more about conformation? If you aren't ready to start this year, learning about it is a great place to start understanding what is good and what isn't. I believe I saw pictures posted on the facebook Caprine Conformation page? Great resource. I can add you to DHIR pages as well that are invaluable resources. ADGA has appraisal information packets that show the trait ranges that allow you to see the range of possibilities in type and how to interpret linear scores. (hint: bigger numbers doesn't mean better necessarily. ;) )
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #11
Oh wow, yes, I would be extremely interested in learning about the CDBC portion of the website. Very generous offer! I went there but was just... confused by it lol.
I AM actually really hoping he will turn around! His coat and attitude have improved remarkably, so I'm hoping the rest will follow suit. It would worry me a bit however that his kids would also grow slowly or, well, just not grow as well their first year if this is at all heritable.
Yes I did snoop around the conformation page and gleaned some useful info there! My pics are still no good lol
I was looking at starting DHIR next year. I'll only have 4 does in milk this year but hopefully more next year. I'm planning to attend Linear Appraisal at a farm not too far away this summer just to watch and learn. Maybe someday I'll delve into that as well.
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #12
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Just a quick update on my buckling

I am feeling far more optimistic and hopeful than even a week ago. The pic doesn't do justice as to his coat condition and overall appearance, but it seems almost like I went put there and just said 'wow'! He's holding himself much better, probably do to continued feet love. Difficult to tell if he is now standing naturally or if he will continue to change his stance over time.

He is also not a timid crybaby anymore (that little goat he is thinking about mounting in the pic is an older buck that used to easily beat him up).

I've been slowly shaving away at his feet, and he's been getting weekly doses of replamin and on a cocci protocol. I think if he continues to improve and to resemble his beautiful dam, I wouldn't have any qualms about using him :)
 

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Crazy Goat Lady
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
20180312_143414.jpg Thank you!
Bless my lucky stars, my prized doe gave me an amazing buckling last week!
Now, I'm not complaining but I have too many bucks, lol.
So 20180228_125001.jpg 20180228_125001.jpg 20180307_134941.jpg 20180311_231324.jpg , since we're looking, which buck shows more promise? Even tho the little guy is only a week old haha, but I'd still love input
*Edit- I don't know why the pics are scattered, can't seem to change it :/
 

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Little guys are extremely hard to evaluate. I'd wait a few weeks. I will say he seems to have great breed character. Nice roman nose, long pendulous ears. Otherwise, he looks high in his loins and short rumped. But, as I said, little guys are hard to evaluate. Again, more importantly WHAT ABOUT HIS DAM AND FEMALE RELATIVES? :) I hate to sound like a broken record, but for Jr stock, that is the MOST accurate way to evaluate them as far as merit goes. The vast, vast majority of male animals are NOT breeding quality. We just don't need that many males, and almost certainly there are more worthwhile animals available. Not that it's always easy - they may live across the country from you, leaving you to practice AI to hopefully get the traits you want. ;) But, the vast majority of males should be prone to castration at birth, IMO.

I actually like your little brown buck. With good management, I think he may straighten up to be a very nice 3 year old. I find young stock and yearlings to change a LOT. Keep in mind breed ideals are based on a 4-5 year old animal, NOT a 1 year old. This is why we base our breedings on what parent and mature relatives look like - the POTENTIAL, not the appearance necessarily. ;) If you use a young animal, evaluate the productivity of that animal or its offspring. Unfortunately a full assessment cannot happen for 4-5 years, so a lot of breedings are based on guesswork. I have the opposite of barn blindness - I absolutely hate my FFe'rs and jr bucks almost by rule. I restrain myself because I KNOW they have the pedigrees to back them up, so it's simply their immaturity that needs to catch up. My least favorite rump when she was a FF, is now my most favorite back/rump and scores highly in LA. It's amazing what a few lactations will do for a doe, and a few years will do for a buck to really show their conformation.
 
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