Being a man in today's world

Discussion in 'Countryside Families' started by Shygal, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. Shygal

    Shygal Unreality star Supporter

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    I wasn't sure how to title this, but something I said in another thread, had people thinking it might be a good spin off thread. Im not even sure I will say this how I am thinking it..heh.

    Do you think that society today has taken a lot away from being a man? That its hard to BE a man today? I don't want this to become a bash/flame thread, but it seems that things have swung too far the other way, as far as women/men go. Women were treated as second class citizens for a long time, and things did need to change, but now it seems to have gone too far the other way. Men are portrayed as big kids, lets see what we can get away with, ask the wife what to do, ask permission, don't DARE show any testosterone at all, don't sweat, don't grow body hair, don't hold a door open, don't look, don't compliment a woman on her outfit or how she looks (how many women spend HOURS trying to look good for men, yet get offended when one actually compliments her on it?), for goodness sake don't touch, don't use manners, don't be a gentleman, just do what you are told. Women will tell you what to do, just go out and play.

    Boys are growing up seeing men not allowed to act like and be men. What happens to a whole generation of boys raised with Everybody Loves Raymond?

     
  2. big rockpile

    big rockpile If I need a Shelter

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    :shrug: I don't know I kind of like it when a woman opens a Door for me.

    big rockpile
     

  3. donsgal

    donsgal Nohoa Homestead

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    I often tell my husband that I am SOOOO glad that I am not a young, single woman in today's society. I find many young men in the "popular culture" world, or the upscale, modern, uban environment very UNAPPEALING. Either they are effeminate (gay or not), or just plain creepy.

    If I were a young girl today I'd be after a cowboy for darn sure!

    Yes, popular culture and the world of the politically correct has taken A LOT away from the American male. Feminism had a lot to do with it.

    I'm sure glad my dh is a beer-swilling, hairy, macho, he-man! *faint*. And from the looks of the men on this board, most of their women can say the same thing.

    donsgal
     
  4. marvella

    marvella Well-Known Member

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    don't feel too sorry for them. things still mostly go their way.

    however, you do have a good point. as things have changed and gotten better for women, mens roles have changed too. it's not as clear as it once was, what exactly a man should be. by my way of thinking, this is a good thing, as it frees up men to be more of themselves, instead of insisting they all fit into one stereotype.

    some men just adapt better than others. and if men feel they are being made into buffoons, perhaps they should stand up and say so. i'd really like men to be a lot better role models to our children. a good role model is hard to find.
     
  5. suburbanite

    suburbanite Well-Known Member

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    Shygal, you're absolutely nuts. Get yourself deprogrammed from the male-dominated dogma, honey.
     
  6. Shygal

    Shygal Unreality star Supporter

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    Uh yeah, whatever? :shrug:

    I am not programmed by anything, I think men should be allowed to be who they are, and not what society says they are, just as women should be allowed to be who they are and not what society says they are.

    I dont WANT a unisex, grey society where everyone is the same.
     
  7. suburbanite

    suburbanite Well-Known Member

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    Well, women still get only 70% of the pay men get for the exact same work and work history, so until there's parity in pay, men are still having everything handed to them on a silver platter.
     
  8. Peacock

    Peacock writing some wrongs Supporter

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    I see valid points in both Shygal's and suburbanite's opinion.

    But I suspect what's really happening here is that while men still have the upper hand in society, the fact that they're being portrayed as bumbling fools in the media helps to disguise the truth. It's sort of the flip side to the woman that acts dumb to get what she wants, the guy who says "whatever you say, dear," and gives lip service to the notion that it's really the girls in charge. But it isn't. Does that make sense?
     
  9. PyroDon

    PyroDon Well-Known Member

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    Frankly I never understood how anyone could consider those "men" on everybody loves ramond or sienfeld could be confused with Men.
    This is not to say a Man has to be the all powerful king of his house hold either.
    Ive known many "manly men" who I personally never considered Men.
    I was taught a gentleman opens doors for a lady, Ive never had a woman be offended when I opened the door or pulled out her chair. I never considered it unmanly to do dishes,cook or even change diapers. A Man does what is needed when it is needed, He treats the women in his life like the ladies they are. Respects their opinions,supports their dreams,and encourages them.
    Does it make me any less of a man because I cook, clean, or wash my daughters hair? Is it sexual harrassment to tell the checkout lady her hair looks nice , the college girls to smile.
    I have a number of jobs currently , Im a general contractor, I manage a parking lot, Im a husband and a father and am trying to make our farm more self relient. I just dont see where taking some of the burden off my wife would anyway deminish my manlyness. If anything I believe as a Man its my honor to take care of my family .
    I will agree that there are a lot of boys 1-100 that would call themselves men who dont have a clue as to what being a man is . for a decent definition watch the movie second hand lions the speech on being a man the one brother gives is as close as Ive ever heard.
     
  10. suburbanite

    suburbanite Well-Known Member

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    Pyro, you're a Real Man. And for once I am NOT sarcastic in the least. Beautiful post. Your wife is lucky.
     
  11. TWOGOATS

    TWOGOATS Animal Lover

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    I agree with you definition of a 'true man'

    as Dr. Laura says, " there are males, and there are men. they aren't the samething" (not an absolute quote, but the general idea)
     
  12. Lisa in WA

    Lisa in WA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Has there even been an admirable man on a TV show since The Cosby Show? That's the last one I can think of. Since then, they've all been buffoons. I also see this with kid's TV show. The parents are all fools and it's the wise kids who save the day.
     
  13. MWG

    MWG Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... I don't every remember getting anything on a silver platter...? Or a paper plate either. I do remember asking for more money than they offered and turned down my first offer due to salary.


    Shygal,

    I agree with you. Men are not portrayed as the same thing they were 30 years ago. Society has changed and it is sad. I have two daughters and I hope that there are some men left when they get old enough to marry (35? :) ). I want someone that will make a good husband, one that will be a leader in the household, not by fear and throwing his weight around, but one that will lead by example, love my daughter as his own and teach my grand children all about life. Character, morals and a backbone... that is what I define as key characteristics of being a man.


    As for the money... they might not get the same pay because they don't ask for it...

    http://www.womenwork.org/career/careercenter/Getting_Hired/salary.htm

    The Art of the Ask



    Women do not like to negotiate

    • In surveys, 2.5 times more women than men said they feel “a great deal of apprehension” about negotiating.


    • Men initiate negotiations about four times as often as women.


    • When asked to pick metaphors for the process of negotiating, men picked “winning a ballgame” and a “a wrestling match,” while women picked “going to the dentist.”


    • Women are more pessimistic about how much is available when they do negotiate, and so they typically ask for and get less when they do negotiate—on average, 30 percent less than men.



    • 20 percent of adult women (22 million people) say they never negotiate
    at all, even though they often recognize negotiation as appropriate and even necessary.



    Women suffer when they do not negotiate


    • By not negotiating a first salary when starting off in the workplace, an individual stands to lose more than $500,000 by age 60—and men are more than four times as likely as women to negotiate a first salary.



    • In one study, eight times as many men as women graduating with master’s degrees from Carnegie Mellon negotiated their salaries. The men who negotiated were able

    to increase their starting salaries by an
    average of 7.4 percent, or about $4,000. In the same study, men’sstarting salaries were about $4,000 higher than the women’s on average, suggesting that the gender gap between men and women might have been closed if more of the women had negotiated their starting salaries.


    • Another study calculated that women who consistently negotiate their salary increases earn at least $1 million more during their careers than women who do not.


    • Women own about 40 percent of all businesses in the Untied States but receive only 2.3 percent of the available equity capital needed for growth. Male-owned companies receive the other 97.7 percent.


    Women have lower expectations and lack knowledge of their worth

    • Many women are so grateful to be offered a job that they accept what they are offered and do not negotiate their salaries.


    • Women often do not know the market value of their work: Women report salary expectations between 3 and 32 percent lower than those of men for the same jobs; men expect to earn 13 percent more than women during their first year of full-time work and 32 percent more at
    their career peaks.
     
  14. SmartAZ

    SmartAZ Well-Known Member

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    It's called cultural collapse. Every dominant culture in history has collapsed, some several times, and always with the same general symptoms. The old morality is challenged and rejected. Same for the old religion and customs. Heroes are debunked and reviled. Art is profaned. Mediocrity replaces excellence, and even people who happen to be excellent try to act mediocre.

    At the same time, the country's basic functions are taken over by foreigners while the government doles out food and money to support citizens. The defense is given over to mercenaries because citizens don't want to fight the country's wars.

    It's all explained HERE. The book is long, but it's a fascinating story. You can download it in four parts.
     
  15. suzfromWi

    suzfromWi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes,those sitcoms irritate me when they portray men as idiots, ran over by the big mouth wives but.......it IS just tv. In real life I find that things are becoming a little more even in relationships, but..... There still is room for improvement. It seems the woman, [ working or otherwise] is still responsible for most of the household duties. Most of the child care and most of the shopping. Now I said MOST not all. Many men dont even know where to find things in the home. Come on girls admit that. A lot of men come home from work and then get to play or rest. A lot of women come home from work and still have the rest of the chores to do. Cleaning, cooking, ect. Now there are big mouth women that nag and yell but if the guy lets them, then hes a woos. There are some men that nag and yell and if the women lets them, then they are wooses too. I treat my man with all the respect and honor that he deserves. I expect the same in return. You notice the word DESERVES? If a person is a jerk you are not going to respect them. JMO
     
  16. MorrisonCorner

    MorrisonCorner Mansfield, VT for 200 yrs

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    Well, those sitcoms may be irritating, but just like the Coke commercial in the middle of them, or the McDonald's ad, they sell something to a kid watching them. A kid doesn't have much range of experience beyond what he sees at home to judge what being a "man" is all about and if what he observes for several hours a day is "man as buffoon..."

    I have a friend who moved from his mother's house to his wife's without the requisite several years on his own inbetween. The women thought their roles were to "run the household" which translated to "treat the men like children." Pick up after them, do their laundry, buy their socks, do all the shopping... at work these men are competent. From a domestic point of view they are utter failures without even the most basic skills. Which, of course, their wives laugh about and poke fun at.

    Well... "we" taught them to be that way for heaven sakes! We taught them that we'd do the cleaning so they didn't need to learn how. We taught them that they didn't need to learn how to buy clothes because we'd take care of that. Or balance the checkbook, or keep track of the bills... in short, we taught them to be helpless.

    And then we complain about it and make fun of them? There's something a wee bit warped about that.
     
  17. suzfromWi

    suzfromWi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yup, your right, we did.....
     
  18. mama2littleman

    mama2littleman El Paso

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    I thought I would give another perspective on women negotiating salaries. I know that prior to having a child I negotiated for more money. After my child was born, and I returned to the workforce, I negotiated for better hours and more flexible scheduling. Money isn't as important to me as is having the time to be there for my child. Other women ( I know of several) are also more likely to negotiate for time as opposed to money.
    Women are still the primary caregivers for young children, as a rule, regardless of whether or not they are working a full time job. Just not a lot of men like PyroDon around anymore. So, scheduling flexibility may be more valuable to them then additional cash.

    I know it was for me. I could easily earn three time my current salary, but I can't put in the hours or the necessary traveling that such a salary would demand, and still be a mother to my child. If I wanted to do that, I would have to get a wife, Oh wait, that's my job as well.

    Nikki
     
  19. PyroDon

    PyroDon Well-Known Member

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    Now now I have suggested getting a second wife to help out , the problem is my current wife and I can't agree on type . the wife thinks it should be a much older version that cooks does windows and sleeps . While I personally think it should be one that can cook do dishes and still have some stamina left for other duties :rolleyes: she says a 1940s or 50s model while I was thinking more a mid 1980s model. We do however agree that which ever model it would have to have enough money to support us in the style we'd like to become accustom to.
    Now Im going to be horse whipped :rolleyes:
     
  20. QBVII

    QBVII Well-Known Member

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    You can say that again!!!

    I like a man to be a MAN --- with ALL that that implies.
    No pale imitations for me. LOL