Barren doe?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by dosthouhavemilk, Dec 5, 2004.

  1. dosthouhavemilk

    dosthouhavemilk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Okay, so we have been raising goats for about 8 years now (though my father had them when he was younger). We seem to be getting does that appear to be barren. We sold "Girl" (that was her name) as a two year old who had never freshened (may have been three, can't remember for sure). Her twin sister "Boy" freshened with triplet does all of whom died. That was a rough year.
    Now it looks like their niece, Elegance, is barren as well? Danielle was an older sister to Boy and Girl (Boy looked like Danielle's twin brother Danny and Girl looked like Danielle). Danielle has done wonderfully, though she kidded with a premie her first year (bred too early). She had Dainty and Elegance. We sold Dainty to a guy for breeding as a yearling. We kept Elegance because we liked her looks, but she doesn't appear to have settled in the last two and a half years. It isn't for lack of chances either. We leave the bucks in after the start of breeding season and they stay with the does until we separate them back out in mid summer. The kidding does end up in the barn. It is very frustrating because she is Danielle's only daughter in our herd (one doe born dead to her last year). Danielle comes from a purebred Nubian doe that took GCH when my younger sister showed her.

    Any ideas about what could be wrong with her? Is barrenness common in goats? What about hermaphroditism (Girl acted very buckish)?
    She is three quarter Nubian and one quarter LaMancha (her mother was half Nubian and her father purebred).

    How much longer should we give her before we ship her? She'll be three in March.
     
  2. Tracy in Idaho

    Tracy in Idaho Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I had a hermaphrodite born this year. It's not as uncommon as you might think.

    Have you put a speculum into her to look and see if she even has a full vagina? This young doeling I have only extends in about 2" to a blank wall.
    Other folks I have talked to have had them with full vaginas, but no visible cervix. Sometimes they have small undeveloped testicles that you can feel as lumps up between their legs.

    One of the really obvious things about this doeling was her VERY teeeny tiny teats. Much more so than a normal doe kid.

    But I'd say if she hasn't bred by now for whatever reason, she probably isn't going to.

    Tracy
     

  3. trickham

    trickham Well-Known Member

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    I have not heard of barrenness being common in goats. Actually, the opposite should be true. They tend to be very fertile animals, in my experience.

    It seems to me like you have a genetic problem, since this seems to only be in one bloodline. In my herd I cull anything that doesn't breed when left with the buck for 45 days (two cycles). Their first year I cut them a little slack if they only raise a single, but after that they had better raise at least twins or they go to the sale. Of course, I am raising meat goats, so the number of offspring is the most important thing. I would think that dairy goats should breed in at least 90 days (4 cycles) and should drop at least one healthy kid.
     
  4. dosthouhavemilk

    dosthouhavemilk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We sell our wethers for meat generally, so numbers are important here as well.
    The confusing thing it that Boy was a first time kidder with triplets but her twin didn't settle. Danielle has kidded four times now (including the premie) and the alst time was triplets. I am expecting triplets around Christmas time as well.
    Unfortunately, we lost Braveheart after her second kidding. Our boss goat starved her to death. :waa: So we only had the two sets of twins out of her.

    Maybe we will spend the money to have the vet's take a look and see. Or if Danielle gives us another doe we may just sell her. Keep hoping she is settled. Her teats are nice and she looked like she was getting more fo an udder at one point...maybe this will be the year.

    Thanks for the input.
     
  5. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    I noticed that you said that you leave the buck with the does and separate them out in "mid-summer". Are the does cycling right at that time of the year up north? I know that down here there are goats, particularly non-Swiss breeds, that will breed year round. But I was just wondering if maybe you were trying to breed them too early in the season. Maybe you should wait til fall. Just an observation. Just an idea.
     
  6. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Also because of where you live, I have a dear friend who used to be part of this forum from your state....I would look at this nutritionally first. Although like TCW my first thought was that you are taking your bucks OUT of the pens as I am putting them IN! Your breeding season on Nubians and Boers are likely July through Feb, but with LaMancha blood in there she is not likely even cycling until late August if not med September! We rarely had LaMancha's kidding by Christmas here like we did our Nubians, and when trying to freshen them to show at the Livestock show in Feb, sometimes we cut even that close.

    But most folks do give selenium injections to thier does prebreeding, prekidding and to kids at birth, and low selenium and E levels can easily be the cause of your problems. Being in the copper defficient corridor you share with us down here, that is another consideration.

    I don't know of any true free martins, doelings who where co-twin to a buckling brother, sharing placenta and amniotic sack, but I have had a true hemaphrodite who had female vulva and male testicles. I have also helped with the diagnosis of a non-breeder via a speculum and a box for her vagina, bred monthly but never took. I have also seen a infant sized penis inside a does vagina, she was very male looking and acting, not just a herd boss type acting bucky. She also sprayed urine back and forth from her vagina.

    I would find it hard to believe that you could have a gentic line of does who threw this, first it would be self limiting, although it does sound as if this is happening with nobody breeding :) But if the loss of the kids was just death with no apparent reason....and this doe herself is weakly looking/frail, you may be dealing with the G6S gene in your Nubian bloodline. Vicki
     
  7. trickham

    trickham Well-Known Member

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    Vicki,

    I agree that this could possibly be a breeding season or nutritional problem. :)

    The reason I suggested a genetic problem is that my understanding was that it was not ALL of her does that were not breeding, but certain ones out of a certain line. If a rogue bad gene has popped up in this line, it would not necessarily present itself in every single doe. And if this is the case, it is being self-limiting because the does in which the gene is coming out in have been barren. The others would simply be carriers of the bad gene. :)
     
  8. dosthouhavemilk

    dosthouhavemilk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It isn't a season problem. We have aimed to have our does kid in March the last two years and so had taken the bucks out for a couple of months (to avoid winter kids, because we had a rough January where we lost five kids and space is limited with the cows) and then returned them in October (when we aim for breeding the does) and left them until the next summer again so the boys don't get lonely. However, since I am expecting kids this month that didn't really work out well. Our bucks have other ideas about when they are going to breed our does. :no:

    We have a kid crop every year from the does left with the bucks(kidded out ten does this year), but she is the only one who has not kidded these last two and a half years. Her dam has, and the three half sisters(buck's side) we kept have as well (all on their third pregnancies, one in the barn to drop within the next couple of weeks). I had 11 run with the bucks again this year (we kept out this years three does to see if it would help them and because Aurora is out of one of our bucks and the other is a half brother of her father). I haven't seen anyone cycling recently (last heat I saw was on Oct. 20th) and so I assume they are settled that are going to settle.

    Shouldn't be nutritional either since we have a crop of kids every year (24 out of ten does one year...actually that was the year she was born). We have dairy cattle and so are very aware of the deficencies in our area and act accordinly to address it in our animals.

    Elegance is a very strong, healthy doe and it seems to be because rather than putting anything towards developing kids she puts it all on herself.

    We had planned on brining in either a purebred Nubian buck or a half Boer, half Nubian buck along with a purebred Saanen (from a dairy herd). Should we be concerned about breeding Danielle to another purebred Nubian? Does G6S gene show up as weak offspring always or is that just a common indicator? Elegance is far from weak and frail..she is one of our best looking does. We would like more Nubian in our herd, or at least a couple more daughters out of Danielle, because she milks like a dream.

    Besides the G6S gene is there a disease or virus that could cause this? We do not test for anything right now. Partially because I am scared to test for Johne's. We have to sell any cow that shows up positive (one of them was a 13 year old ready for retirement) and I don't want to sell any of them. But I am thinking I will try adn talk dad into testing them this coming eyar for CAE, Scrapie, Johne's, and CL. Could any of those cause what we are experiencing? Or since it is just two does in eight years from the same line indicate a genetic thing?

    I found out that our pygmy, Velvet, carries a gene for fish teats. Found out the hard way. Two of our doelings born this year have fish teat(s). Kitty is the result of half brother and sister (out of Velvet) settling. She has two fish teats. And Velvet's doeling to her son has one fish teat. :(
     
  9. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Or since it is just two does in eight years from the same line indicate a genetic thing?
    .........................

    Sorry, I didn't get this from your first question, that it was just two does in eight years. In large herds, you will have more things happen than in smaller herds, like abortion, or does not covered, but they subsequently are covered when the buck has built up his semen or another doe is not in heat at the same time period, especially older does who deman full attention from the buck and will even run off does. But two barren does in the same bloodline, would not make this dam a cadidate at my farm to get other stock from, When you do run a larger herd, especially when profit has to be made from it, you can't afford to keep barren does, or even dry yearlings around. With the second no breedable doe out of her I would have culled the bloodline, or at least sold her kids for meat, does or bucks as soon as weaned.

    I kid out in March, all March kids are bred to kid out the next March. Does who remain open are culled, kids who do not make weight in October to be bred are culled. I can't afford a dry yearling doing nothing but eating here, she has to be on the milkstring and the show string. So take with a grain of salt my answer if you don't run your farm like mine.

    http://www.dagron.com/ heres an article on G6S, click on her articles. Vicki
     
  10. dosthouhavemilk

    dosthouhavemilk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It wasn't two of Danielle's does..it was one of Danielle's younger sisters (result of her mother and father settling a second year) and a doe out of Danielle. Though we didn't hear back from the guy who bought Dainty (Elegance's twin), so we don't know if Dainty settled or not. She was sold as a yearling with about three others.
    That is the biggest problem. Danielle has not tossed many does (only three so far and last season her doeling came out dead after a long hard birth to triplets). So I can't tell if it is common. We also sold Boy as a milker, so only had that one year to go on. Triplets out of a first time freshener.
    It is baffling because Danielle has done so well. Premie the first year (she wasn't even a year old), twin does, twin bucks, triplets last season and she looks to be carrying triplets again.

    We don't normally show, but this year I am aiming to take four to the county fair since we will have cattle there anyways. We don't have purebreds or registered and our goats are more of a side hobby than anything. We try to bring in some of the money we spend on them by selling the kids.

    Thanks for your input and for the link.