Are we REALLY Entitled to Live Free?

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Obser, Dec 16, 2006.

  1. Obser

    Obser "Mobile Homesteaders"

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    In the original thread by a similar name Mr. B and Mr. Z chose to “correct” Mr. Obser for stating his opinion that we are entitled to live free of bureaucratic interference (or as free as possible under the existing conditions) and for stating that he does not feel compelled to follow all bureaucratic procedures and policies. Here is my response to the gentlemen and others who share their thinking.

    You are certainly entitled to consider yourself to be “mind-numbed sheep and slaves to the Govt” if you wish. You are equally entitled to doubt that anyone can live in relative freedom and to conclude that anyone who appears to do so is obviously lying. It would be even more convincing and impressive if you discussed the merit of ideas and did not take discussion into the personal realm as you have done with this topic.

    I realize that expressing ideas that are different from “normal” or “mainstream” meets with disapproval of those who are uncomfortable with anything that might “make them look bad” or embarrass them or frighten them with change – or worst of all, to cause them to question their position. However, I am not interested in their limitations and am not willing to live by their rules.

    Striving to maintain as large a measure of personal freedom as possible is evidently a foreign concept to those who value conformity and who are who are invested in the status quo. They obviously cannot comprehend Obser living for a quarter century free from the need to follow the dictates of others with no obligation to conform to the wishes of a boss, family members or standard thinking members of society; free from the requirement to live in any one place; free to see new places and meet interesting people, free to do whatever he desires constrained only by integrity, ethics and personal ability.

    Yes he does “bow to authority” by having a driver’s license and a social security card. Does that make him a hypocrite with double standards? Is his freedom just a delusion – even though he does go where he wants, lives as he chooses and answers to no one other than his wife?

    Mr. Obser is not proclaiming absolute freedom. It would be extremely simplistic thinking for an individual to demand that anyone who supports freedom demonstrate absolute freedom. (Notice Mr. Z, that the thinking is identified as simplistic not the person -- as such it is not intended as personally insulting. However, a person might earn the designation of simplistic for themselves by consistent demonstration of simplistic thinking.)

    Your reaction is very similar to that of fellow construction workers during my youth who said, “Slow down kid, you’re making us look bad” or later my fellow college students who said, “That SOB is ruining the curve.” In both cases the complainers were playing competition games in their mind (and losing) when they might have been well advised to use their time and energy more constructively.

    The self-appointed “equalizers” want everyone to be equal without any need for them to put in the effort necessary to raise their own standards. Their method to “draw even with” is to attempt to discourage others from being “different” or to “take them down a peg or two”. That tactic didn’t work with me then and it is even less successful now.


    My wife and I realize that our present lifestyle cannot go on forever (“This too shall pass away”); however, we thoroughly enjoy every day that we can live together in freedom, doing what we wish to do, living as we decide. We intend to continue to do so as long as possible. (We actually live exactly that way and have for many years – this is not hyperbole or imagination or conjecture for us).

    Not everyone can understand or accept the idea of personal freedom. Many are frightened by the idea because it includes making one’s own decisions (and being fully responsible for every one with no excuses), structuring one’s own life, or being different and encountering social disapproval.

    Many also fear or resist change and are most comfortable within the status quo, the familiar, traditional values, and their own turf. We do not criticize or demean those who prefer a more structured life with more clearly defined roles, expectations and obligations (i.e., social structure). Their life is their business. We do not expect them to understand our ideas or our lifestyle. We do not seek their approval.

    There are a few people who understand the concept of personal freedom and who live the lifestyle as much as possible. We value many of those people as friends – some are members of this forum. We do not tend to choose our friends from among traditionalists, fundamentalists, obsessionists of any ilk, or the determinedly ignorant.

    Please notice that I am not recommending anything to anyone, not selling anything, and not criticizing any person’s individual lifestyle. However, if you detect a lack of admiration or respect for traditional thinking, standard ideas, and standard answers you are absolutely correct. Notice that includes lack of respect for thoughts and ideas – and is not personalized toward any individual (evidently an impossible distinction for some to comprehend).

    If these ideas are familiar and comfortable to you it is likely that you understand and enjoy individual freedom. I would like to hear from you either in this thread, in PM or by email to Obser1 (at) gmail.com because we probably share interests and values.

    If anyone feels insulted or affronted by being “categorized” and wishes to confront and reprimand the culprit, look in the mirror (you made the assignment). If irreverence toward commonly accepted ideas and values meets with your disapproval, please feel free to use the “ignore” function of the forum.
     
  2. MarleneS

    MarleneS Well-Known Member

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    Dave, you can call me an American :) Heck, you can call me anything you like, I know who I am and what someone else labels me only has an impact on me if I choose for it to do so.

    As an American I am very much aware of the freedoms afford me by our Constitution, this in no way means that I a free to do as I please, when I please, where I please. All my freedoms come with responsiblities. And these responsiblities are sometimes enforced by laws. I accept that as the price to pay for having the freedoms afforded me.

    You can paint a picture of your an Annie being free, and living the carefree lifestyle you share with us. That's fine with me also. Right until you say something which appears to mean you think you do not have obligations for your freedom. Or if it looks like you think your freedoms are a birth right. Or if it looks like you are unware that you can not have those freedoms without others being willing to protect them for you. Or if you think they come and remain without a continued price to be paid.

    Please feel free to enlighten me once again about just how free you truly are and whom you are obligated to :)

    Hugs
    Marlene
     

  3. Obser

    Obser "Mobile Homesteaders"

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    Marlene,

    I very carefully said that we are obligated to no person and that we are bound only by ethics, integrity and personal ability. This does NOT imply that we have no responsibility regarding freedom or country -- that is a very large part of integrity and ethics for us.
     
  4. mpillow

    mpillow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Absolute freedom sounds like chaos to me....thats not to say I enjoy paying taxes/fees etc....and needing "permission" to build a dog house (which was on out town ballot this year). Let alone paying the wages (ie taxes) of said fellows that enforce laws and regs....its always more More MORE! When are we going to have enough? We need a plumbing inspector....but can we do w/o other positions created by unnecessary regs? :shrug:

    My mind turns to the teens who started to have sex too young....one taxing trist led to many more :rolleyes: Now we are all getting screwed :help:
     
  5. woodspirit

    woodspirit Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is entitled to live free, as long as they are willing to die for that that right and for others right to it. Freedom isn't free. It's not cheap either.
     
  6. tamatik

    tamatik Well-Known Member

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    interesting thread..I shall watch it closely.It raises many questions.Some of which I am not happy to ponder,but must be pondered none the less.

    Gord in BC
     
  7. tinknal

    tinknal Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The only obligation I feel is to follow the "social contract". In other words the golden rule, do unto others, what you learned in kindergarten..........Don't harm others, and don't mess with other folks stuff. Everything else is artificial beuacracy and to be followed only if convienent or expedient.
     
  8. charles burns

    charles burns Well-Known Member

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    Obser - I think you are getting some negative feedback because of the style of the post.

    When disclosing your own personal lifestyle you use heavily weighted positive words like freedom, entitlement, integrity and ethics.

    You leave everybody else with heavily weighted negative words (in the context of your post) like normal, mainstream, categorized and limitations.

    You don't personally accuse any one person but your choice of words, be they intentional or accidental accuse everyone but yourself.

    In an objective discussion your personal life style is irrelevant. In an objective discussion you absolutely can't use words like mind numbed sheep or slaves or other words or phrases that are so open to individual interpretation that they are rendered senseless.

    You seem not to be wanting to discuss personal freedom as a concept as much as you want to hold your lifestyle up as better than everyone else's.

    Your post doesn't leave much room for anything other than negative criticism.

    (Writing about yourself in the second person also makes you sound like a bit of a psycho too.)
     
  9. Boleyz

    Boleyz Prognosticator, Artist

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    You need to read the original thread. Mr. Obser is offended because ZYG and I were a little offended at the condescending tone and "IDEAS"...not "PERSON" of Mr. Obser.

    Read the original post and you'll understand what happened in thread #1...this is "The Rest of the Story"...

    Lighten up Obser...I was discussing IDEAS...The IDEA that your way is "Free"...You're no more "Free" than any other law-abiding citizen. That was the IDEA that Mr. ZYG and Mr. Boleyz were discussing...

    I like you...I'm all for you...

    http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=155038
     
  10. Boleyz

    Boleyz Prognosticator, Artist

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    Very insightful analysis Charles. Well Done.

    The condescension of the first thread, as well as this one, was what put me on he defensive.
     
  11. Boleyz

    Boleyz Prognosticator, Artist

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    OK
     
  12. charles burns

    charles burns Well-Known Member

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    Boleyz - I read the original post and commented on the need to define 'entitled' and 'free'. Mr Youthguy tentatively offered an objective definition of 'free' but from there posts slid back into endless building permit scenarios.

    I think the first Obser post was born of the endless building permit scenario thread in the self reliance forum. Now, if you take the views expressed in thread 2a and my comment from post 4b thread 1 (obviously) and apply them to the general consensus in thread 3 it will all become very clear that Mr Obser is entitled to the wheels on my trailer but not free to use them without a permit and I have the right to move into that little cabin you built on the lake for the second and third weeks in July for the rest of eternity. This will in no way compromise your ownership of the property but I am free to shoot you on sight if I find you messing about in the kitchen area during those dates.
     
  13. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't follow any of the threads, and only skimmed these messages. I'm only looking at the title of this thread.

    What does it mean to live 'free'?

    Does that also mean you will never, ever, use health care, public roads, and so on?


    I think we all have an obligation to be good neighbors. Or follow the golden rule. Or however you wish to express that.

    We need to care about each other.

    Govt regulations are an effort to make us better neighbors.

    Many times, those very regulations are as bad as a bad neighbor.........

    But without any regulations at all, we just have total chaos. That doesn't work either.

    So, no, I don't think anyone has the right to live absolutely free. One has obligations to be a good person, and as such there are basic restrictions, even on a hermit living so deep in the back woods all alone, that need to be followed. I'm not talking about a house permit piece of paper.

    --->Paul
     
  14. Boleyz

    Boleyz Prognosticator, Artist

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    Charles, you're the best at sorting these things out in a clear and concise manner. The cabin stays un-locked, so you won't need a key during your stay there.

    For "Eternity"? I dunno...maybe like Norman Bates' Mother?...