Anyone done...

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by 2A, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. 2A

    2A Well-Known Member

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    A 12v conversion on a Ford Jubilee? I can't handle the 6 volt system any longer. I am to the point of having to have a chase/support vehicle every time I bush hog the other property. The old beast dies and after the first one or two starts she's done. The ongoing ignition probs shut me down 6 times tonite. Had to have the wife follow me around in the field with the Suburban.

    So I bought a conversion kit on ebay tonite. Supposedly all the parts needed. Someone tell me this works better than swapping over an M. My M is 12 volt and that means it simply has no charging system at all. Well, strike that. It charges fine. Unfortunately as soon as you turn it off it also DIScharges fine. *sigh*
     
  2. John Hill

    John Hill Grand Master

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    I could probably help with this but unfortunately 2A has me on ignore! :haha:
     

  3. Ozarks_1

    Ozarks_1 Well-Known Member

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    Haven't done one on a Ford.

    Did a conversion on my Ferguson TO20, which wasn't too bad. It certainly made life a lot easier.
    I don't know if it will help, but you might get an idea or two from what I did:
    I replaced the generator with a "one-wire" alternator that hooks to the battery. (Had to build an alternator mounting bracket.) You "might" have to add a push button switch to the charging system to energize the alternator upon start up.
    I also replaced the points ignition system with a $100 electronic ignition conversion, which I consider a darn good investment. Now I can work WITH the tractor instead of ON it!

    I'm not familiar with the charging system on an M.
    Perhaps the charging/discharging issue could be dealt with by somehing as simple as a master disconnect switch on the battery like some race cars use?
     
  4. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I suspect the problems will not go away with the 12v conversion. The issue is not the starter, but just keeping a good solid clean electrical system.

    I run an IHC H & 300 (same as your M); Ford 960 (going to be about the same as your Jub); and an Oliver S77 all on 6v in the winters of Minnesota.

    They work fine, start them below zero.

    I find the conversions to be a nest of wire, a lot of confusion, and poorly thought out & do not work well. That is only my opinion tho....

    You M problem has to do with the one wire alt first feeding the battery, but then the alternator draining it all away again with the excite circut. you need that push-button deal Ozark mentions. But, as you mention yourself, it don't really work.... So much for the conversion being a good deal..... (Some 12v systems require you to rev the engine quite a bit to start the charging process....)

    The Jub is going to have the same problems, 6 or 12 v, it has now, until you clean up all the wiring, get all the contacts shiny & solid, and keep a maintenece schedule on the electrical system. It might work for a few months as you rewire it, but I don't see a big change.

    Anyhow, you can make the 6v system work just fine as is, if you put the time into it.

    Same deal for the 12v, it'll work if you invest the time.

    So, until you get it in the shop & spend some time, not just in-field reworks, you'll have issues.

    Now, those electronic ignition deals, those sound pretty cool, they are a bit touchy on _not_ feeding them the wrong juice or you pop them, but otherwise _that_ would be a performance boost for your machine. I'm looking into getting one or 2 of those....

    --->Paul
     
  5. gspig

    gspig Well-Known Member

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    You can change the system to 12v. got to www.ytmag.com and look under the 8n forum. It's done all the time, do a search as this topic comes up quite often. Warning, if you post and ask how to do it, there will be some purists that will give you slack. If I recall, your system has an automotive type coil, the kit you bought will need an alternator (probably single wire), a new 12 volt coil. If the alternator has an internal regulator and the coil has an internal ballast, the installation should be quite easy.
     
  6. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

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    The main cure for 6 volt systems is a very large and secure ground such as a woven wire one like came originally on the systems. They corrode away and are replaced by grounds that are too small of them.
     
  7. WisJim

    WisJim Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If it won't start with a good 6 volt battery, there is something wrong. A 12 volt battery might "force" it to start (by spinning it faster etc), but won't solve the basic problem. My 9N Ford will start in 20 below zero (or colder) snowy weather as long as the distributor is dry when I first start it, and I stick it in under a roof to make sure that happens.

    Jim, in Western Wisconsin
     
  8. John Carter

    John Carter Well-Known Member

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    Still driving around my 6 volt cheve with no problem. As stated earlier, check that ALL your ground connections are good, corosion free and correctly sized. It does sound more like you have a short somewhere in your system. But if you have bought the kit already than you have your weekend project already planned. Just follow the instructions and it will be alright, until the next time you cant start it up cuase you still havent found the short. :)
     
  9. 2A

    2A Well-Known Member

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    Well thx for the input, folks. I got a very interesting schematic in my email and a lot of good thoughts. As for the tractor itself, it's old, unrestored and has a lot of hours. The ground is always a constant fight but then all positive grnds seem to be. It's one of the things I am looking forward to getting rid of.

    But the main thing about a 12v system is that 1200 CCA battery I can put in and the extra couple spins it will easily take, whether it's a cold start or restart after she dies. And when I finally do get around to rebuilding the whole machine having 12v still won't hurt anything.
     
  10. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    Don't you have to change he starter to suit a neg ground? My old IH B275 was a 12v pos ground, except for being careful to jump start it it was no trouble. Maybe you just need a new battery or voltage regulator. Which if it was me I'd do the change to 12v at the same time.
     
  11. agmantoo

    agmantoo agmantoo Supporter

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    The existing starter will work. It will turn the same direction whether neg or pos ground.
     
  12. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Starter motors are odd creatures - they don't care wich side is pos or neg, they will spin the same direction anyhow.

    And, on the old machines they were built pretty heavy, so they can take the short term extra voltage for a minute or so, makes them spin faster.

    But, 2A is not fixing the problem, so he will burn out his starter, either at 6v or 12v. He really needs to go after the problem, which is bad wiring or components in the rest of the electrical system. It's not going to help him any to do only this conversion.

    A 6v battery & a 12v battery of about the same size hold about the same potential energy. He won't get as many amps out of a 12v as he would have out of a 6v. It all balances out. :)

    You have the parts, go ahead with the conversion. But it will not help you one bit. The problem will still be there.

    --->Paul
     
  13. 2A

    2A Well-Known Member

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    OK, Rambler, I must not be making myself clear. This is the same sort of problem I've always had from 6v systems. It's the reason they went to 12v in the first place: THere's just not enough oomph there to start the machine multiple times if it doesn't start easily, and this tractor just does not start easy anymore. It's cold natured and in need of an overhaul. It also has a tendency to die at inoportune times.

    Thing is, it's just a bushogger. As such it sits most of the time. Therefore it isn't high on the list of things I am working on right now, especially since it does ok once it's started. The ground strap has been a problem but, even when it's freshly cleaned, the thing is still a bear to restart with the 6v, AND a bear to start the first time if it sits for a week or two. 12v electrics and a good 12v hi-amp battery will cure the problem for now, and it won't hurt anything once the machine does get rebuilt late next year.
     
  14. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't mean to be on your case about it, 2A, sorry if I sound that way. :) :)

    I guess I don't understand the part about 'tendency to die' every now and then.

    Originally it sounded like you have a tractor that cuts out, or stops running, due to electrical problems (you said the ignition system shut you down 6 times in one night?), and you wanted to 'fix' this by installing a 12v system.

    To me, that is more work to install the 12v conversion than fixing a few wires & make the tractor more dependable in the first place! :) :) :) But I don't understand the stalling problem, so I shouldn't comment.

    Right now, the 4 6v tractors I have are working pretty good here in Minnesota. The 85hp diesel 12v newer tractor is giving me _fits_ with it's electrical system. Bad postive wire, terminal goes bad, the key switch wire slipped off the starter selenoid. I still don't have it working 100%, and I need it for corn harvest! I spent $56 for parts last week, cables & such.

    My big tillage tractor needed a jump this morning, for some reason the battery leaked down to where it would turn over, but not fast enough to fire up in the cool morning - another diesel, uses the same D4 battery. They are near 100 lbs, no small battery...

    Then one of my pickups while I was picking up a bearing for the combine, dern thing didn't start out in the parking lot - had to go back in and buy a battery, borrow some tools & install there.....

    And my other pickup leaks down the battery in about 4 days, done it too often, now the battery is not in good health.

    So, right now, for me, the 6v systems are _wayyyyyyy_ better than those lousy 12v systems! :) :) :) I get along better with 6v setups, so I just can't see the problem for the trees. :)

    --->Paul
     
  15. agmantoo

    agmantoo agmantoo Supporter

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    12 volt one wire alternator conversions are notorious for draining batteries. That is why I sent 2A a schematic to prevent that from occurring. A 12 volt system will however compensate for a lot of ills on older equipment. The increased voltage will turn the starter faster while still delivering a good spark to the plugs through questionable wiring. Additionally the output of a decent alternator will recharge the battery to peak in a brief period thus creating good restarting capability later.
     
  16. scott

    scott Well-Known Member

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    Burned the top off of our 850 this summer... when i put the stinky mess back together we went with the 12v system w/ the single wire delco altenator ... had the distributor rebuilt also as it was a little overheated as well ...

    now I just turn the key... hit the button and it roars to life ... wish i'd done years ago.
     
  17. HermitJohn

    HermitJohn Well-Known Member

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    Nothing inherently wrong with 6V system on a tractor. Or a 12V positive ground generator system. I just tend to swap because I can get a rebuilt Delco alternator for $22 at AutoZone with a warranty and 12V batteries are whole lot easier to come by and cheaper. 6V batteries are available but not popular so tend to set for long time on shelf so not great when you buy them, plus cant just put truck battery over into tractor if tractor is 6V. And many chargers anymore are 12V only or 12V/24V, not 6V. And just go price getting some ancient 6V or 12V generator repaired. Even just the voltage regulator for such can be as much as whole rebuilt 70s era delco alternator.

    I personally have never seen point of one wire alternator if I have to pay anymore for it. 70's era Delcos with built in regulator were cinch to wire as designed. I just put couple of them on friends tractors, one replacing some goofy low amp and expensive Romanian built alternator and the other replacing an ancient and tiny Bosch generator. Delco produces heck of lot more current and costs whole lot less.

    One thing if your tractor has its own battery and if you dont use it alot which it sounds is the case, get one of those 1A chargers that maintain a full charge and turn themselves on and off to do it. Leave it plugged in all time when not using tractor. Work great and you will always have a fully charged battery.
     
  18. unioncreek

    unioncreek Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2A,

    You need a diode on the wire from the alternator to the solenoid. I'll see if I can find a numbe on the one that I used. Got a couple of them from Radio Shack when I coverted my M.

    Bob