Any rhyme or reason for the number of kids?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by MillsFarmFamily, Nov 11, 2006.

  1. MillsFarmFamily

    MillsFarmFamily Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    We have a beautiful Saanan that gave birth to 2 does last year, but this year (bred to a different buck) she only had one. Does the sire or the dam determine the number of kids, or is it just random luck? Thanks
     
  2. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,640
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    western NY
    The saying goes, the buck determines sex of kids, the doe determines number of kids. I know the first part is true, but there can be so many factors determing litter size, including dietary, whether or not some fetuses are absorbed, etc. Most does as they have several kiddings do show tendencies, particularly those with multiples. But twins one year, single the next is very common and you have to go through several breedings to note a pattern.
     

  3. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    With all things being equal...nutrition being key...it's bloodline and breed. Our LaMancha's my daughter Joni raised for 8 years were twinners...rarely anything but twins. Our Nubians routinely have triplets...triplets as 12 and 13 month old first fresheners, and triplets when they are 11. Twins out of first fresheners are expected once in awhile, and in a 12 year old, but twins or singles for us in our adult herd is about the same as quads for us (1 or 2 does a year will quad without drugs.

    Size of kids has been the huge noticable bloodline trait we have seen, some bucks throw large kids who grow fast and reach maturity faster, others have small kids who get to mature size later, although at adulthood there is no difference in the size of the goats.

    But yes the doe ovulates the eggs, and then implants them, and then can slough off 1 or more if nutrition drops to worry her about the ability to sustain herself and the kids.

    Had you changed your feeding program at breeding this year and last? Protein drop in your hay? Anything you can think of at all? Did she leave the farm to be bred? Vicki
     
  4. trob1

    trob1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Location:
    Tennessee
    The saying goes, the buck determines sex of kids

    Well I have a doe that has had 11 babies all girls and each breeding was with a different buck. I now own her and have her bred to kid in a few months. I am so curious to see if she has girls again or if the pattern will be broken.
     
  5. xoxoGOATSxoxo

    xoxoGOATSxoxo when in doubt, mumble.

    Messages:
    2,025
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Location:
    Saginaw Bay area, Michigan
    I had twin does, one who kidded with twins every year while her sister never had less than three.
     
  6. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    Teresa, over the lifetime of your does you will be shocked to see how many of them are just at or under 50/50. She may have 5 sets of triplet doelings, but bet you a buck she will have 5 more sets of bucklings when aged! Our elder does who have lived here from birth to being put down, have all been nearly 50/50. Perhaps 1 buckling or doeling away from it. Usually 10 or 11 freshenings in 12 years. Vicki
     
  7. trob1

    trob1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    236
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Location:
    Tennessee
    I will be curious to see. I just looked up her progeny again online and she has had in order twin does, triplet does, triplet does and triplet does. She is going to turn 7 in Feb. She is bred to kid in Feb. She is one of triplets herself 2 does and a buck. And I checked and all her kiddings were as the breeder said by a different buck each time.
     
  8. PygmyLover

    PygmyLover nigerian & pygmy breeder

    Messages:
    464
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Location:
    Atco, NJ
    Same with my doe Atheana. She always had does for me - unsure what she had before since she was basically a rescue.
     
  9. KSALguy

    KSALguy Lost in the Wiregrass Supporter

    Messages:
    8,821
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Location:
    S.E.Alabama
    haveing used differint bucks you really cant cout out them as being the determining factor as each time you use a differint buck a new set of variables comes into play, think of it like flipping a coin, or hitting a slot machine, you can start to make a pattern of sorts if you flip the same coin with the same hand and the same person, (not a pre predicted pattern but a dicernable one none the less) it goes to reason that you could have just happend appon each buck as he was happening to flip Female Sperm at that breeding, what did each buck produce in other does in each season?
    also some does cant carry males, or females, genetics are a strainge thing, just like how King Henry the 8th couldnt father viable male children,. and some women have the RH factor that causes pregnancy malfunctions,
    then of corse there is the whole 50/50 thing, over a life time of breeding, statistcally chances are that the big picture will show a 50/50 ratio or close to it, but when you only are able to get a limited number of breedings or are able to only look at a segment of the total breed potential it will look un even.
    there are just too many variables to say one way or the other.


    as to Multiples its also a problem of variables, both nutritional, Stress, Male contribution, female Contribution, genetic backgrounds, Hormone levels, time of Cycle, Luck, who knows, the best thing you can do is try and meet each variable as best as you can and hope for the best
     
  10. PygmyLover

    PygmyLover nigerian & pygmy breeder

    Messages:
    464
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Location:
    Atco, NJ
    I would use the same buck for both my girls each year (changing it each year of course like I said) but Atheana always had girls and Gretchen give me one buck and one doe. ????
     
  11. chma4

    chma4 Wolverton Family Farm Supporter

    Messages:
    907
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I have a doe that has trips every year. All three are always same sex (ie 3 does or 3 bucklings) Never a mix, and always 3. I bred her 3 doelings, and each had singles (go figure) i kept them, because genetics suggested they would throw multiples, go figure ?????
     
  12. alidansma

    alidansma Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    101
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    I would like to chime in here with some (sort of) science.
    The theory I have heard is that Y-sperm (male producing) swim faster and die sooner (gee that is so man-like huh? live fast-die young). So if introduced to a buck after ovulation the faster Y-sperm will get the prize and more boys will hit the ground.
    But the X-sperm (producing does) is more of a slow and steady wins the race kinda character. So introduced just before ovulation will have time to hang out, shop around a little and when the eggs are finally dropped they will be there waiting to make more little girls where as all the Y-guys have burned out like fireworks...of course living critters come with no guarantees
    So maybe you are just breeding your doe at the right time for girls.
    Now that breeding season is in full swing everyone can try this and get back to me on if it was successful or not! Good luck!
     
  13. PygmyLover

    PygmyLover nigerian & pygmy breeder

    Messages:
    464
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Location:
    Atco, NJ
    now that would be interesting if I could make it work. ;-)

    buck comes in 6 days! I can't wait for kids in the spring! Anyone in NJ or PA wanting unregistard ND or pygmies?
     
  14. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

    Messages:
    1,198
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    Location:
    Lexington Texas area
    As far as random chance goes, I look at it like this: If you flip a coin 9 times and get heads...you would think that on the tenth time you flip it, the odds of getting tails is greatly increased. However, each time you flip a coin, it's a 50-50 chance of getting heads or tails.
     
  15. Jillis

    Jillis Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Location:
    Northeast Kingdom of Vermont
    Well, that's weird then. All my kids have heads AND tails!

    (Scratches blond head and shrugs)
     
  16. KSALguy

    KSALguy Lost in the Wiregrass Supporter

    Messages:
    8,821
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Location:
    S.E.Alabama
    omg, that was great lol, reminds me of when a friend of mine would always ask how much for a whole (chicken, duck, rabbit etc.) when i would tell her how much i sold them a piece. lol
     
  17. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,640
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    western NY
    People have been trying forever to breed according to the male vs female sperm theory, but I haven't seen it working. I think there are just too many variables that come into play for any one factor to determine sex.