Advice from those with large(50+)herds...good idea??

Discussion in 'Goats' started by allenslabs, Oct 7, 2006.

  1. allenslabs

    allenslabs Saanen & Boer Breeder

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    I am thinking of getting a meat herd going. I've got a dairy herd of 13 now and was thinking of maybe adding a meat herd in our 30+ acre pasture. This pasture can not be seen from the house and so I would of course need maybe 3-4 donkeys in there to guard em. My thoughts were of a 75-100 doe herd with 4-5 bucks. Is that about right?? THere is water available at all times via a spring fed creek and the fence is woven wire. Would it be better to have sheep than goats as I'm more a goat fan really but know they get out easily.
    Then again I'm thinking........ 100 set of hooves to trim (although there are some rocks by the creek and I'm sure they would grow a little slower than my pampered dairy girls) , 100 mouths to shove wormer in, and then disbudding! Do you disbud all your kids if you have that many or maybe just dehorn your does and maybe your bucks and then let the kids go unless bought with that preference or something? I'm playing with this idea so some thoughtful insight would be nice. Is it really worth the trouble? Would I lose more to coyotes than I'd see? Is there a big problem of does kidding and not having me right there just in case like happens with my dairy girls? Is this a bad idea?? They'd have woods to get in and a smal building to get in which I would enclose to offer some protection. Is 100 too many? I was thinking if they kidded twice a year (they'd just run loose with the buck year round) that would be say approx 3 kids a year (just in case some lose or something) so that would be around 300 kids a year.

    Let me know the pros and cons so maybe I can deal with em and think em over. I'm ok with meds and have that idea down. I was thinking that to feed and worm 100 or so goats that would take around 7500-8000 a year..... is that about right? Thanks guys......... nice to have a braintrust sometimes..... :p :baby04:
     
  2. KSALguy

    KSALguy Lost in the Wiregrass Supporter

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    thats an aufule lot to get into especially with just 30 acers, its best to have fewer than the maximum that your land can hold so that you dont over graze it,

    i would stick to around 50 does max for that size and only one or two bucks, they will have mostly twins at least once a year if not twice in some cases and you will have more goats than you know what to do with,

    Grade Dairy does, Spanish, Boer Percentages, just about anything really as long as she has a good frame so you wont be working up hill, she needs to be as long as possible and not too narrow,
    then i would the the ABSOLUTE BEST Boer buck your money can buy, he is worth his weight in GOLD, he needs to be Pure or Full blood and registerd to make any kind of money here, (will explain later) he needs to be Long and THICK with a good wide set to both his front end and back, he will put HUGE amounts of Muscle and size on the kids of just about any and all Does you can give him.
    THEN when you get your Kid crop, Band ALL the bucklings with in the first few weeks if not sooner, things will be MUCH easyer on you and the bucklings later if you do. dont keep ANY percent intact he is worth more in the freezer than alive and intact. if you have good does who are eating good you will have nice fat weathers to send to market in a few months. or you can sell some as bottle babys to 4H'rs
    now about the Doelings, sence you have a FULLBlood buck, ALL your doelings can be registerd as 50% if you were able to get some percent stock that have a paper trail you can do their kids at a higher percentage but you HAVE to have a paper trail.
    keep the BEST doelings for replacement Brood does keeping the best and getting rid of any of your does that didnt do as good a job as they should. sell the other percent doelings with papers for a better price to other people looking for good stock to add to or start their own meat heard.
    There are Meat Goat clubs all over for the local areas affiliated with the ABGA and all that, get involved with one close to you and you have a support group to sell and trade stock with, and a marketing back drop if its put togather right.
    Learn your local market, Easter is one of the best times to take butcher stock to market, you will get a better price though if you sell out right off your farm, there are buyers that will come to you. you just have to find them.
    its not easy but its not impossible, and if you do it right it can work out to be a nice farm income but it takes dedication and energy

    just remimber ALWAYS use the BEST REGISTERD Boer Buck and are half way there
     

  3. mberryrfd

    mberryrfd Well-Known Member

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    Ditto on the BUCK expect to pay around 500 for a young unproven buck
    Fb prices seem to be on the rise again figures just as we are adding a few more does


    but i havent had any luck with woven wire you might want to electrify it of use barbwire every 6 inches once they learn the bite the seem to stay away from it
     
  4. Reauxman

    Reauxman Well-Known Member

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    I don't have much goat experience, and none out of dairy, but a few things:

    100 does doesn't sound too off. I have 5 goats on a 3/4 acre pasture and hey can't keep up, even in the summer. 3 1/3 per acre sounds realisic.

    Look for niche markets. Sell live animals and offer free butchering enabling you access to the hide and skull. They can fetch you another 10-15 bucks per animal with little work(if you tan the hide, more, but more work).

    If you are in the north, keep hay costs in the winter in mind. Here we have green 365 days a year.
     
  5. Muskrat

    Muskrat Well-Known Member

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    Find the market FIRST, then get the goats.

    Check your time available. It doesn't usually take twice as much time to (fill in blank) two goats as it does one, since you'll already have the tools, etc. ready. It doesn't take ten times as much time for ten as it does for one, but it does take more time. Do you know how much time it takes to just count a hundred does and their kids? So ask yourself, how much time do you have?

    Can you handle 75 does delivering within the space of a few short weeks twice a year? Or if you spread it out more, can you handle does delivering day after day after day after day after day? What if you get a bad winter storm or a major period of rain just at kidding?

    Can you afford the fencing? How good are you at building fences? Have you considered you'll be wanting to keep things out as well as things in? How will you keep the groups separate?

    Have you the resources to buy the animals, maintain them, feed them, and house them for the time it will take before you get your first batch of kids to market?

    Do you have help? What kind of physical shape are you in? Can you handle working the animals? Can you handle one of the big Boer bucks? Meat kids are heftier than you would think.

    Will coyotes be a problem? If coyotes are a problem in your area, then yes, you're going to have problems. How major will vary. Your guardians can only do so much.

    The question of costs has too many variables to even give a guess. What shape is the pasture in? Is it dependable through the summer drought? Four hundred doe hooves are hard on pasture, so you'll have to manage the graze. How many weeks will you have to feed in the winter? What's the hay situation? Here in the south, my goats have pasture year round, so my feed costs will be way different from yours. If you'll be feeding much, do you have a place to store hay, feed, etc. in bulk? How about delivery?

    A profitable operation is very possible, but there are many potential pitfalls.
     
  6. plain vision

    plain vision Well-Known Member

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    Allenslabs,

    We are right around 100 head of mostly fullblood Boers. We have 35 acres and that is capable of providing enough for them because of all the browse. If it was just grass, i don't think that would work near as well.

    For trimming feet, there is a hoof trimming service close by to us (he will travel all around the country). He charges $5.00 a head, if you provide him with the wormer and meds, they will also give that to them. He doesn't charge extra for trip. Just the set rate of $5.00 a goat or at least that is what he charged last time we called him. If you are interested in his phone number, let me know and i will look that up. So if you can keep your goats mostly off of corn and onto a nice balanced diet, you shouldn't have near as much hoof trimming. Corn in the diet really increases the amount of hoof trimming needed. We used to have to trim about every 3 months and since change in diets, we haven't even trimmed some since February and they are still traveling great. We had some that we did have to trim, but not many in comparison to years past because of corn.

    Shelter is pretty important, i know some don't use it much but the difference can be pretty great between a goat sheltered and one not. They don't do as well as other stock in the rain. They can get fungus' on their skin from rain and also they tend to stand hunched and sickly looking if left in the weather for very much time. We might be a little more protective then most as we don't like to ever see a tail down even.

    Something to consider if you get into Boers. Many prefer them with horns on, especially on the fullbloods and you can't even show them i don't think in the fullblood shows without them unless they are percentages. Many people are used to disbudding and don't mind it at all but there are some things that goats can do with their horns that they obviously enjoy. They can open barn doors up with horns to get inside if it is raining out. They can pick mud out of their feet with them, and they can scratch their backs perfectly. Horns also help them to generate heat better. In the winter, they seem to enjoy carrying little cotton balls around from their hair coat on the end of their horns. See all of the things you would miss if you disbudded them. :) Course they can get hung up sometimes with them, but with proper planning that problem can be eliminated also.

    Would like to write more and little tips that i think could help, but better not write too much more all at once. You are welcome to write privately if you would like. I have to give you my thoughts on start-up. If you start at the commercial stock, than that is your market. However, if you start at fullbloods you can sell to all the meat market. You can sell to show goat people, nice percentage stock, breeding stock and even commercial stock if need be. The higher up you start the more markets you can cover and sell to. Then also it costs the same to feed a percentage or commercial doe as it does a fullblood ...sometimes more even as they don't always hold the weight as nice as the fullbloods. So these are some other things to consider. At Danville Auction, Ohio they are having a Big Bred Boer Doe sale on October 21st. More of that info is on our internet site. So far around 70 bred does are consigned, some registered and some commercial stock ... would be an inexpensive way to start-up maybe.

    goats@aopv.com

    hoping to help, sonja
    www.aopv.com
    acres of plain vision
     
  7. malickfarms

    malickfarms Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100% with plain vision
     
  8. Sher

    Sher Well-Known Member

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    My friend has a hundred..and a guy who was one of the first to own Boers in Iowa runs..last I knew..500 head.

    Most here have woven wire fences with two strands of electric attached. We do the same here. It keeps the goats in and helps deter the predators.

    The man with 500 now has a tilt table and does all his own trimming. My friend has a guy come .. usually cost $5 a head and he and his wife will do vaccinations and worming if you have the stuff on hand.

    Most of us are raising meat goats...with some exceptions for breeding stock. Not too much in the way of feed goes into the kids..because they are sold by three months old.

    My friend runs two bucks with her 100 girls. Year round kidding. The guy with 500 also farms..so he schedules one HUGE kidding period. He basically lives in his pasture for a month and a half. I kid year round also. It just kinda depends on your time/work schedule.

    The more you run on your acreage..the more it gets torn up and worn out. So pasture management and ways to cycle pasture would be a must. Predators may or may not be a problem. Here..they are. Coyotes..I had a guy come in and trap them. The first night he got nine. Also .. this year..the DNR has let cougars loose. Needless to say..more effort will be taken to protect livestock from them now too.

    Shelter...my opinion is that they HAVE to have it. If you are going to kid in the midwest in winter..you'll lose more than you save if you don't have some kind of shelter put up for them. It also helps with the predators...ie..shutting them in at night when they are close to kidding. Most here...pasture those does/bucks and bring the due does up to lots close to their houses right before they kid.

    You can do this..but it will be alot of work and there are alot of challenges. But there are plenty of people on this thread alone that would lend a hand helping you through the hard spots.

    I applaud you for asking for pros and cons. And for giving this alot of thought ahead of time. Oh..and the biggy is the buck..I agree. And for what we do around these parts...the chest and butt both have to be large. My buck in not tall..BUT he has a chest and butt that won't quit. I like looking down those bucks rump..to their hooves. I wanna see muscles bulging from top to bottom when he's walking.

    Good luck!!
     
  9. allenslabs

    allenslabs Saanen & Boer Breeder

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    Well here are my thoughts~
    Water~ The creek in the back never runs dry and never freezes. So the water would be endless and so that isn't a problem.

    I'm still thinkin on the fence. That would require a lot of work to run the electric but I know it can be done with the $$$$.

    My DH said I should just get afarm loan and buy about 20 does and see what happens although I would rather be able to just raise em but heck if I got 10-15 that would be fine. That next year I would have my stock but I do see that if I got the 20 then with the kid crop from them and my saanen milkers I could pay off the loan so it would be a one year note. Or I could really try to sweet talk my MIL who WOULD loan the $ but hate to ask. But she WOULD do it if I asked her I'm sure. I would prefer to buy bred does so I don't have to worrya bout a buck this year and I could keep em up here close by for the winter and then rent out our pasture to pay for the hay and stuff until next year. Hay is not an issue as i have people I can get hay from for now and figure that for the 20+ my 10 saanens that would be about 6-7 bales a month and that's about $120 a month. Then for feed for them all that would be about $250-300 a month. So say $420 a month x 5 months of winter= Right about $2000. I already spend $200 a month as is and so that's $1000 of it so I'd need an extra $1000 above the cost of my animals.

    Hooves and worming I can handle on my own. I might be a little person (5'3" $125lbs) but I can usually throw that weight around pretty well. I've been able to throw down some 300lb calves so I might not be able to get DH to help all that much but I've got 2 neighbor boys who will help whenever I need it. I usually hoof trim about once every 2 months or just whenever they need it. I'd just have to dedicate a whole saturday every so often to hooves.

    So to get some nice does bred is the goal with the thoughts of buying that really nice FB buck next year. I would like to be able to get a buck so that I could appeal to flat out meat market and then also show people. Leave all the options open I guess.

    And as far as livestock guards we have a GP pup and I'd also get about 3-4 donkeys back there with em.
    Thanks all for the thoughts keep em coming!! Thanks!!
    Jessi
     
  10. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    My 2 cents, although I only have 15 goats...mostly does....with 10 due to kid in the spring.

    I have donkeys and Great Pyrenees. The GP are much better with the goats than the donkeys. If I had a choice of just one, I would have the dogs. The donkeys will run off predators, sometimes, but will sometimes harm other animals, they have biten off calf tails and such. A great pyrenees will not. I would not trust my donkeys in the pens with my goats but i would my dogs.

    Also, becareful not to overgraze your land or the goats will kill it out and you will be left with barron land. Practice rotation and don't start with more goats than you think the land can handle.

    I wouldn't run my bucks with the does, but rather determine when you want your kid crop ...such as a certain size ready for the Easter maeket and other markets. Then you would have a uniform kid crop to haul to the market all at once...not a few kids here and a few kids there.

    We have sold out of the cattle business (no grass, no hay, almost no water...texas drought) as of last Thursday and may be doing the same thing you are (goats require less than cattle and can eat browse) , so I am hoping to learn from this thread as well. We have the acres but the cost of goat fencing is prohibitive.
     
  11. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok, a few thoughts here off the top of my head. :)

    I would start out with closer to 50 does your first year as apposed to 75-100. That is a plenty big jump from the 13 you have now and may ease you into it easier. If you decide you want to run more, you can always save your best doelings from the first year and buy a few more in.

    MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A MARKET FIRST! You will have probably too many kids to sell off the farm, so be sure there is a good auction near you where hopefully you can take your excess kids and not lose your shirt. Try to market your best doelings as breeding stock, and auction whats left. Wether all the bucklings at a young age, UNLESS you have a good ethnic market that it would pay you to leave them intact. If so, factor in the extra pasture to keep the bucklings in till sold so they aren't breeding everything in sight.

    Unless your market likes disbudded, I wouldn't worry about it if they are going to be meat goats or meat herd replacement stock. Most people with larger meat herds like their does with horns. Me?? I'd still disbud them, because I'm totally used to disbudding skads of kids every spring, and I HATE horns.....but thats just me. If you can't think of a good reason to, the market shouldn't desire it, so it would be one less thing you'd have to do.

    Boers, definiately go Boers.... :dance: I would go with Boer/dairy does and the best FB buck you can afford. With the Percentage dairy does, you get a higher milk output which grows awesome kids on little to no grain input, in less time. So less input, faster growth, hefty kids=to market faster=more money brought in with less money going out. Just momma's milk and a bit of browse will grow good kids with the right genetics. Of course you want does with enough frame and size to have big kids for that buck to throw meat on, so don't choose extremely *dairy* looking does. This doe threw some of the best meat kids for me from a FB buck, so don't sneeze at e'm just cause they have funky ears and long dairy bodies. :)
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    Main thing is, be extra careful where you choose to purchase your animals. You do a great job on the goats you have now so you must know what you are doing. Take it from somebody who knows from experience, you don't want to bring in some crazy bacteria and wipe out your entire investment. I'm not trying to be a downer at all....just concerned and don't want somebody else to make my mistakes. We have spent tons of money and time trying to do everything right but when you purchase animals with problems (they weren't obvious problems either), you pay dearly and so does your herd. If you purchase 20, 30, 40 or even 50 does and just one of them has a serious problem, all your goats will have a serious problem. Make sure you have the money to lose. We have lost $2000 worth of goats this year because our purchasing practices were not careful enough and we were quite equiped to house them properly. We got into a hurry to start our meat herd and this summer has been just awful. I've wanted to cry everytime I was out there b/c somebody was dying and several others were sick. Now, everyone is well and we are in hock up to our eyeballs. We have a long way to go just to break even. Make sure you find a really good breeder. If you can do that, buying a starter herd is a great way to get going. Ask lots of questions about things you'd consider important things to do in the way of care and see how they answer. If they don't iodine navals (had one die from this) or if they don't vaccinate for anything (I have a friend who doesn't even do CD/T) or the goats are walking around on their hocks and/or limping etc., don't buy from them. Who knows what else is going on that you can't see obviously. Things are really looking up for us now and our new buck is getting everyone bred pretty quickly. However, my husband hates goats now because of the awful summer we just put in. We are just now getting to enjoy them some. It has been terrible, really. So, I'm just trying to be helpful. I don't want you to think that I'm being rude....I'm really not meaning to be. One other thing, do you feed round bales or square? We have about 25 goats and we are going through about a bale a day but they are square bales. Our pasture is ate down enough that I don't feel they were getting adequate nutrition so we started feeding them hay. They get half a bale in the morning and the other half in the evening. We pay around $3/bale so I guess that is around $90/month plus the grain they eat. I don't even know how much that is. I wonder if that cost will go up more in the winter though?? Probably. I try to watch their body condition and feed accordingly. I like the Boer goats. I just hope you have an easier time starting out then we did. You have one up on us though since you've already been caring for goats. You aren't green like we were!! LOL
     
  13. mammawof3

    mammawof3 Well-Known Member

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    Indiana Breeders Fall Boer Goat Auction is going on October 14th in Montgomery, In. at the horse barn at Dinky's auction house. Starts at 12:30 CDT. Selling 80 t head-fullblood/percentages. They had some pretty nice animals last year, at resonable prices. Most did not go for the $6-$800 and up that you find at the bigger auctions. We got a "known-name" buck there last year for under $300-(if we had bought him from the breeder at weaning-he would have been alot higher) Just an idea for starter herd at resonable prices. I would start small and keep my doe kids-rather than start big-kids born at your farm are used to your "bugs"-and more likely to be healthy-than mixing alot of herds up from the start. It's not that you buy "unhealthy" animals-it's that they aren't used to what your ground "has"--so mixing a bunch up-usually asks for trouble. Just my 2 cents worth.
     
  14. christij

    christij Well-Known Member

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    Is there a diary breed that crosses better with Boers than others?
     
  15. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    IMO, they all cross well although some crosses are more common than others. Nubians are quite commonly crossed but then again, Nubians are more common. These crosses result in good brood does heat tolerant on both sides, and if it matters, nice ears...no airplane ears.

    Many folks swear by crosses with the Swiss breeds...lot's of folks like the Boer-Saanen cross.

    I am presently crossing Boers with some of my Lamanchas, although some claim that the resulting earlessness is a "defect" in the eyes of some markets. To me, it results in a very hardy animal that gives lots of milk for a long time growing big kids...but that is the point of any dairy/Boer cross.

    Actually, the answer to your question is "to each their own" :)
     
  16. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have seen and raised good Boer/Dairy crosses with just about every dairy breed. Lamancha, Nubian, Alpine, Saanan, Oberhasli....Not Togg that I know of. I think rather than a breed preference, I have a style preference. As long as the dairy doe has a good frame with plenty of depth all-round, and a good mammary(not awesome, just decent), and you cross them with a good buck.....you should get nice kids. The good buck being the bigger part of the outcome. My personal favorites have been Saanan and Lamancha crosses, but thats just personal preference for a type.
     
  17. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    I've been to some good productions sales and some bad ones. Price doesn't neccesarily mean quality. The mistake a lot of people make is assuming that b/c it is a production sale, the stock is of the highest quality. Once sale we were at, the nicest doe...the one everyone in the building was talking about, had a fish teat. Nobody was taking the time to step into the pen and get their hands on her. Goats were selling HIGH at that sale and I guarantee you she was no exception. So, just how much are you willing to pay for a fish teated doe? LOL We left that sale and went down the road to another production sale and it was smaller with not as much pizazz but nicer stock. If you learn your genetics and bloodlines and make sure you get your hands on those animals to check them out, it shouldn't matter which production sale they came from, IMO. That has been my experience. I would go back to Tri-State Boer Genetics again. We bought some does (1 bred) there and they are hands down our nicest stock. We lost one to Listeriosis which I can't blame on the sellers. We still have the other 3. We spent a lot of money that day but I bet it won't be hard to get it back. The bred doe had triplets for us too. I, also, would start smaller and keep doelings back at kidding season. I wouldn't do it how we did it again. Here is a suggestion that my husband had. You could buy a few fullblood doelings, maybe one or two purebred doelings and some unregistered bred does (the kids would be 50% registered) that are bred to a known name buck). That way, you could keep the kid crop of doelings and breed them the next time around for 75% kids, sell off the original bred does perhaps, by then the fullblood are ready to be bred and you could buy your buck. By the second year, you'd be breeding for 75%, purebred and fullblood doe kids. That might be cool. A registered bred doe that is bred by any buck worth his salt is going to be costly. Maybe that Dinky's sale will have something. Hopefully it isn't like a "sale barn" but more like a production sale. If it is somewhere that they have a ton of animals in and out every day or week, it is a risky place to purchase. They are all exposed to so much bacteria. Usually, a production sale is held at a fairground in a building or something like that and it is really clean. Again, that is my experience. I'm excited to find out what you end up getting. It sure is fun to pick out the new goats!!
     
  18. mammawof3

    mammawof3 Well-Known Member

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    "M&H"-i agree 100% about "auctions"-the one at Montgomary is not held in the same building as their "Friday night" animal auction. You are only asking for trouble that way! Yes, you have to know "bloodlines", but the bottom line is--unless you show (not just 4-H either)and WIN consistantly--are established enough to have a good reputation of quality stock--a 100 pound goat is worth $1.10 a pound-wether you paid $50 for it or $500..Yes, the "known" breeders are getting higher for their kids--but certainly not ALL known breeders and certainly not ALL their kids--some are going to slaughter. The market for "start up herds"-of high priced animals is not as strog as it once was. I have old "UCN" from maybe 15-20 years ago-maybe longer-when Boer was "just starting" out big, where a frozen embryo was $25,000.00--no joke!! There was some really BIG money invested, that has certainly gone the other direction. Supply and demand-Just because the breeder may tell you "my bucks father sold for $8,000-" does NOT mean he gets anywhere close to those prices for any of his kids---Hope that doesn't sound discouraging, don't mean it that way-yes, the Tri-quest sale does have nice animals-we bought a few there last Spring also. (April 8th(?) sale ) That A.K. buck is AWSOME!! Must add that we also brought home "sore-mouth" to our 4-H pen-3 weeks after the sale--we had never had it here b-4 in 2 years of goats...so...you just NEVER know about ANY sale!!
    "Jessee"--the market in our area does seem to lean towards "meat" over breeding stock--presently is wanting 60-80 pound goats-$1.10 pound--so you want FAST growing stock--if you have to feed those kids awhile to get them to market weight, you loose money fast. I would think w/your high producing Saanen does, bred to a "Good-Meaty" Boer buck-you would get really fast growing kids! :) (lots of milk=fast growth!)..i would NOT be afraid to breed my girls Boer and keep the doe kids for start ups! Most fairs now allow Boer also, so there would be some market for Jan. born wethers there-you would need to disbud those however. I say "Go for it!"
    BTW-the bloodlines at the Oct 14th sale are-Powell/Hollman"Casey" (?)-Eaggsfile, Magnum,Kaptein--i suspect T-66 also, though not advertsed as such. Good luck! :)
     
  19. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Location:
    Missouri
    Oh, another thought to the original poster. You will need a good strong area to keep your bucks in *part* of the time, because if you run your bucks with your does year-round, you will be having problems. Such as does breeding back the month that they kid, reducing their years fast if they keep this up. Also you will have 2 month old doelings being bred if the buck is run with the herd all the time. NOT GOOD. So put in a STRONG buck pen.
     
  20. Kshobbit

    Kshobbit Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,190
    Joined:
    May 14, 2002
    Location:
    Kansas
    I agree with the others who say start smaller and work up to a larger number. You are going to want to save the big beefy does. I have been raising Boers for 5 years now after 25+ years of dairygoats. I just got them culled down to what I think are the best of my best. I sell commercially as goat meat. The Boers are better browsers and kid easily even out in the rain!! They are good mothers too.