Aborted or Killed? What do you think?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Rosarybeads, Feb 11, 2005.

  1. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    Well, we were on vacation for a week, and when we came back, we had one duck & several chickens missing. To say the least, our golden retreiver had dug out and was creating havoc on our ranch. Now here is my question. She had never been with the goats & sheep before, so I don't know how she would behave with them.
    One of our nannies that was really thin, in poor condition, is no longer pregnant. We found part of the afterbirth on the ground, but no sign of the little one at all. I was expecting her to have kids in March, but I really didn't know when. She does have a slight bit of milk, but barely enough to cover the bottom of the pail. What do you think? Did she abort or did our dog kill the kid? Would she have milk if she had aborted? Poor girl, she is so thin and miserable as it is, and now this. I think she needs a long break.
     
  2. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    why is your goat in such poor condition? it looks like she aborted and the dog eat the kids. they would not have lived anyways. i would stop milking her ASAP and try to find out what the problem is with her. did you de-worm her?
    what kind or goat is it? is that your only goat?
    susanne
     

  3. Milking Mom

    Milking Mom COTTON EYED DOES

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    Sounds like the dog just had a big old chasing party while you were gone. If he chased the doe around and around when she was heavy bred and got her upset and scared she could have aborted and then he ate them. If he has been out there chasing and aggravating her and she didn't eat for a week that could cause the thinness I would think. Also if she hasn't been milked or nursed for a week and the dog chasing her around naturally no milk being produced. Goodness sakes. You had a mess when you got home didn't you. Put her in a pen and worm her and give her some grain and hay. Give her a bose shot (vet 1cc per 40# body weight given sub q) and it wouldn't hurt to give her a dose of CMPK (feed store). Try milking her 2 or 3 times a day and you might be able to get her milk production back up. I would think it depends on how well her udder was developed before she lost the kids. She just might not have started producing milk yet. You might go to http://dairygoatsplus.com/forum/index.php and ask Vicki if a shot of oxytocin at this late stage of the game would induce lactation?? If she was in poor condition to begin with and was bred that probably did contribute to the problem and she may be in no condition to produce milk anyway. Get your girl in shape with some good grain and alfalfa pellets and some nice hay after she is wormed well. YOu can also put some black oil sunflower seeds on her food for some fat in her diet. Get them at WalMart.
     
  4. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    the dog prbably chased everything on that farm. now, my question is this, why would you leave, and not have some one checking the animals daily,? and why was a old in poor condition doe, bred in the first place?
    If iseem harsh or cold hearted, it is because people, must learn to have animal sitters, Sme one to check on our animals when we are gone. I hate all the horror sotried.
    and a dog will kill anything.
     
  5. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    The goat is a nubian/cross? She does have the floppy ears and is spotted brown & white. We bought her and a few others (from other sellers) at an auction house, she was going for very cheap. She seems older than the rest, and I don't think she was ever well taken care of, her feet were very long, and she has no tags, but mostly because she was thin and it looks like she has had mastitis in the past, the top part of her bag is harder than the rest. We have wormed her and the rest with Ivomec once so far, about a month ago now, and it didn't seem to make a difference with her, although it did with the others. She does have a very hoarse voice, she pretty much lost it right after we bought her, that is making me wonder too. I really think she is just quite old. We are new to goats, but I have raised sheep growing up and we have three sheep with the goats right now too.

    We have recently had two sets of twins born from two other nannies, and so I am thinking now that she didn't abort, that she either had her goats and they didn't make it (probably just one, considering the condition she is in), and the dog got it, or else the dog killed it. I really don't know. Needless to say, we will not have to worry any longer, because the dogs found another home, and I am glad, but will miss them as well.

    Milking Mom: Thanks for all your great advice, we have started "plumping" up the goat more, we bought grass & alfalfa hay to go along with the browse she has to eat around the pasture (the other goats just get grain here and there), and I also bought 4 way (oats, corn, barley & alfalfa pellets) & sunflower seeds like you recommended. I am feeding her this pretty much free-choice (hay and grain), as she isn't overdoing it on the grain at all. I hope she feels better after a while of this. I am not milking her currently, although I have gotten a couple of ounces here and there for one of the young goat's new kids who aren't getting quite enough milk (another story).

    Debitaber: First off, obviously we didn't know she was bred when we bought her, and secondly, I respectfully disagree about the sitters. It WAS my fault however, I knew those dogs were a risk and I let it slide anyhow, and I have learned my lesson there. If I ever have a doubt, pay attention.
     
  6. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    it is good if you learned something here. i'm wondering though why you disagree with a pet sitter? if i would go for a week i want somebody to feed my animals and give them fresh water daily. my dog would not stay in a kennel for a whole week? maybe there is more to learn for you. :yeeha:
    also if you desite to milk a goat than stick with it. not taking today a little bit milk next couple of days nothing and than again a little bit. obviously she had a mastits problem in the past she doesn't need that again.

    this goat seems still in poor condition even after worming?maybe she has CAE? i hope you did pasteurize the milk before you gave them to the other kids? with her voice she could have an abseess in her throut? :eek:
    be careful what you are doing and stay informed. use common sense

    why do you think the other kids don't get enough milk?
    susanne
     
  7. Goldenowner

    Goldenowner Member

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    Maybe I miss understood... But did you leave your animals for 1 week without anyone looking after them?


    How do you know the dog did anything?
     
  8. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    We are the only people we know that live in the country, every one of our friends is a city folk, and unless they knew where the chickens were, or how "wide" my goats normally look, they wouldn't have noticed anything awry. Same with our cattle neighbors. All our many animals have automatic waterers and backup tubs as well, plus access to an abundance of feed, courtesy of my Hubby's macgyver-like ideas! :D

    I agree, I was not planning on milking her again, but when you get into an emergency, you do what you have to do, and it was either that or let the kid die. To tell you the truth, I didn't think the kid goat would make it, after having sheep in the same condition growing up that NEVER made it, I wasn't too worried about pasteurizing the milk, I was more worried about getting something down her before she stopped breathing. If you are right, and she does have CL (it sounds more like this, with the abcess in the throat thing), we won't keep her or the kid obviously. We only gave her milk to the one kid. I will take a closer look at her when I go out, and see if her throat is swollen. I really just think she is old and not getting good food, but you could be right. How can you tell if they have CAE or CL other than getting the tests? I really like her, she is a sweetheart, but I don't want to risk the rest of the goats. At the same time, this isn't a business for us, we just want to get a bit of milk for our family. In the future we want to get a milking cow and raise a herd of sheep, so we have beef, milk & a nice income from the sheep (they are excellent-lined Polypays, quads and triplets with excellent growth records), so I guess if she is sick, my husband and I will consider just keeping her and giving her a good home nonetheless. By my research before introducing the goats to the sheep, they can't give them CAE or CL. Any information/wisdom you have would be greatly appreciated.

    I think the kids aren't getting enough milk because they were slightly weak, never content, always baaing, and thin, hunched over looking. I have raised sheep, so I recognize the signs, especially when you compare them to the other twins, who are doing great even though they are younger.
     
  9. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    Both dogs had killed many of our chickens in the past, even after intensive training, so we put them in a large run & dog house. There was a chicken in the dog pen, who had gotten away under the old boxcar we have on one side, and the dog had dug out, and was going back and forth. We found a rabbit half buried, half eaten, and there were dog prints in the goat area. It is possible the dog did nothing with the goat, other than take it and eat it, but nonetheless it definitely ate chickens. There were some feathers in the dog pen too (of course, there are feathers all over our farm, but I could tell there were more than usual)
     
  10. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    By my research before introducing the goats to the sheep, they can't give them CAE or CL. Any information/wisdom you have would be greatly appreciated.
    ...............................

    CAE in goats is the same/similar to OPP in sheep. CL is zoonic, meaning it can spread to all mammals including humans, it spreads like wildfire during shearing of sheep herds. Vicki
     
  11. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    i think if you have good friends it shouldn't be so difficult to look after some animals. it is great to have automatic waterer. but what if they fail? i also think a dog has to get his food once or twice a day and not once for a whole week. it is good that you found a good home for your dog.

    the best thing for your old doe would probably be to bring her back where you got her from. nothing good coming out here. your little kids sound like they are having a tommy ache and need to be wormed. if you don't have enough milk for them go and get some cow milk. do you feed loose minerals to your goats? if they are weak it could be selenium/vit E deficit.
    how do i know if a goat is positive for CAE? only testing can bring result for sure.
    some signs like mastitis, swollen knees, weight loss with proper food and nutrition. even abortion could be due to CAE.
    same with CL. you either could see an absess or to be sure you have to have her tested. this is a very serious illness. don't fool around with it.
    are you taking care for all the animals by your self? with three little kids it's a lot of work. if you concentrate on on kind of animal it would be easier for you.
    go with goats or sheep but not both since they have different needs. sheep is probably not so time consuming.
    good luck with your animals
    susanne
     
  12. Cheri

    Cheri Member

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    Scabies can spread from sheep to goats.
     
  13. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    It's really hard for farm folk to get a vacation. Such is the life, it comes with the package. But I still love it. We have farming relatives, but none of them will look after the goats for me. I don't know what will happen if I get sick or something. I've been putting off a surgery I need because I'll have to be on crutches for 6 weeks.

    I'm glad you've got such a handy spouse. That's a plus. If one of your citified friends could just drop by and make sure the feeders and waterers are doing their jobs and that the dog is still contained, it might be a good idea. Surely they can be trained to check that much for you. They are friends, aren't they?

    Maybe the doe went for several days before you came to start trying to milk her so she didn't develop the milk. I don't know. I'm having the same difficulty with does that I do milk the first day. We've only had one kid dissappear completely from the place. Some animal jumped over the 6 foot fence around the pen the goats are in at night and got back out with an entire 2 month old kid.
     
  14. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    Well, talked to my hubby, and I think we are going to take thin doe and get her tested for a number of things. I am a bit worried now. I hope we weren't hasty (I know we have been a number of times already :no: ) in getting these goats. I did more research on the web, luckily the goat doesn't have any abcesses, so that's a plus, but nonetheless I don't think she is healthy, or she could have the internal CL. I am just crossing my fingers that everything works out okay. Makes me wonder about our ranch, too, the guy was running a ton of cattle/calves on it too, and not all looked that great.

    We have considered having friends coming out, trust me, if we could we would. Unfortunately, they work during the week, and it is a two hour drive out, not to mention back. We usually take off on the weekend and come back the following, so unless we could find anyone to look at them during the week it doesn't help us. We used to have friends check on our animals (kitties, chinchillas, etc) when we lived close by in the city. We may consider asking them nonetheless, unless things are in perfect shape here (which they weren't, we knew the dogs were a risk, and we also knew we had goats coming up to their due dates). Well, I guess you live and learn. We do have backup waterers (tubs).

    Farm life is like that, isn't it, but it is SO worth it, even if you can't leave. Handy spouses are good too. :p

    Thanks Susanne. We actually have a noah's ark around here, alot more than sheep & goats. Somehow I generally manage, and my husband gets alot done on Saturdays, and if I need help I get it in the evening. It's always tougher during the baby-birthing times (including mine!). Homesteading is a huge learning curve, even after I did alot of this during my youth, I avoided alot of mistakes, but we still continue to make them. Like buying these animals at a sale barn. I knew better!
     
  15. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you live and learn. Sounds like Noah's ark there. Whew. I remember the days when my kids were little too. I'm raising grandkids now. 2 of them live with me, no parents. They are not babies anymore and I am so glad. I think there is a reason young people have babies and not old people. (smile) You've got your work cut out for you with your babies and all the animal babies as well.

    There is a disease called Brucellosis that cattlemen vaccinate for. I'm not sure but it may affect goats too. It causes aborted fetuses. You might check into that. It sounds suspicious if the cattle are sickly all around you. Especially if the cows are aborting calves. Ask the cowboys what they think the problem is with the cattle. Cowboys know their cattle well.

    That's a long drive to check animals for sure. You have no neighbors within a few miles? Country folk are often willing to do things for a neighbor and many good friendships develop in such ways. We ask for help when it's time for working our cattle. In return for their help my helpers get fresh eggs, the loan of our buck for some of his does, or kids, a fresh apple pie, extra veggies from the garden, the right to fish in our pond or hunt on our land now and then, etc... Sometimes we help with another person's work with harvest, haying, or to help keep the fire contained when they burn off their pasture. Farm folk always jump in the truck and drive when they see smoke to make sure it's not a neighbor in need. Get to know your neighbors girl. You'll be glad you did, and make some new friends in the deal. ;-)
     
  16. Rosarybeads

    Rosarybeads Well-Known Member

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    Babies everywhere. :) But they're all SOOO cute (isn't that how I got in this mess?) :haha:

    Well, I talked to some (thankfully) informative vets, and they told me they think it is CAE, and they will do some tests for me. I will talk to the "goat" vet at the place tomorrow in detail. I really hope it is just CAE, and not CL or something that can transfer to our two cows or especially, to our sheep. At the same time, I will be upset nonetheless if it is CAE, but at least I know what I am dealing with, what to look for, and I do know how to avoid passing it on to the little ones, culling it out, etc. I remember doing this type of stuff with a rabbit herd that had clostridium. Cull, cull, cull, and then you FINALLY pretty much get rid of it, except for the rare case.

    Yeah, I have only talked to our neighbors once or twice, they were pretty friendly, but everyone around here is a bit distant, everyone (but us) has gates that close off their long driveways, etc. I think people value their privacy here. So do we, but you are right, we do need to get to know them nonetheless. I know I felt real nervous about opening up their gate and going down to the gate by their house to tell them their horses had gotten out and we had gotten them in a pen for them, but I didn't know how else to contact them, I don't have their number. :p Maybe offer them several of our pretty rare hens in exchange for them checking on our animals a couple of times? :) I will have to try and catch them next time I see them around.
     
  17. Milking Mom

    Milking Mom COTTON EYED DOES

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    You know it isn't as easy as one may think to get someone to come help you out. Most folks have their own family and animals to tend to and problems to handle and are too busy to come do things for other people too. Folks just aren't like they used to be at least not around here. People just aren't into helping out thy neighbor like they used to many years ago. Most people don't even know their next door neighbor's name anymore. If you are lucky enough to have a friend that is into the same thing you are and is willing to help you out that is wonderful, but when you don't you are just stuck trying to do it your own self the best way you can.
     
  18. SilverVista

    SilverVista Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the Ivomec given a month ago. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I was taught you NEVER give Ivomec during the last trimester because (1) the animal's system functions differently during pregnancy, and often the target parasites aren't killed, and (2) the fetus itself is a "parasite" and can be adversely affected. We do our last clean-up worming when the bucks and rams are turned out in the fall, and then again in the claiming pen as part of the post-partum routine.

    There's probably no way to know what actually happened, but something as simple as a good chasing will definitely endanger unborn babies, and upset mom enough to keep her from caring for them properly if they are viable when born.

    The best thing that ever happened to me was GROWN UP CHILDREN! :haha: We actually went for over 10 years without a family vacation off the farm together because we didn't trust the livestock to be problem-free, and there was nobody we could ask to handle everything we had. Old age has it's advantages now, when both DD's know they owe us back for many, many favors freely given when they were kids. As long as we don't abuse the privilege, they are more than happy to come over for a few days at a time and care for the livestock THEY LEFT BEHIND WHEN THEY MOVED OUT :eek: :D :eek: :D

    Susan