Abort?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Kathy'sKID, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. Kathy'sKID

    Kathy'sKID Kelly in Nebraksa

    Messages:
    103
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Well, as it seems, all our girls are coming into heat again, and as a result of it our youngest buck has become an excellent jumper / escape artist. I've caught him in with the girls twice in past 4 days, but I believe (and hope) the problem is fixed and he should no longer escape. Anyway, I think I've narrowed down the 'possible pregnant' does to four. One is his mother, one is his twin, another of no relation that I'm not worried about, and a fourth who kidded only 9 weeks ago. Soooo, now what? I'm not tooo worried about the son to mother breeding, I know some people do it that way. His sister kidded 10 weeks ago . . . how stressful is this going to be on her (and the fourth doe) to kid/breed so close together? Also, these are first fresheners, will this hurt next years milk production? To be dried off so soon? Plus, we're looking at late January for kidding dates and we get some nasty cold weather here at that time (don't usually start kidding season until Mid - Late March). Errrgh, :help:

    We're having some blood work done in a couple of weeks, so we may double check for pregnancies then. How late is too late if we decided to abort the kids? Can you use black cohosh to abort a goat? If we use lutelyse, is the milk still drinkable?

    Advise, opinions, etc. welcomed.
     
  2. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    4,629
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    I would at least abort the sister. In fact, I just did that a month or two ago when my young buck also decided a fence was no object if a doe was in heat, and bred his sister. He went to the auction that week, and I gave her lutelyse the next. It's inexpensive and easy to do. Since she was only five months old, I didn't ask about milk withdrawals. :rolleyes:

    From what I've read, I believe that drying them off early this time will effect the next times, but I'm not an expert on that.

    mary
     

  3. cowgirlracer

    cowgirlracer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    514
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Location:
    Wyoming & building a homestead in Kentucky
    I'm so glad you asked this question. I too have a fence jumper - or actually fence demolisher. I am not too crazy about having babies in January either. Do we have to get lutelyse from a vet? Are there any long term side effects?

    TIA,
    Anne
     
  4. Jillis

    Jillis Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Location:
    Northeast Kingdom of Vermont
    Be reeeally, reeeally careful with lutylase. It can cause abortions in the human adminstrating the shot if you even get a little on your skin. And it can mess up you periods. It is not something to mess with lightly!
     
  5. Blue Oak Ranch

    Blue Oak Ranch Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    256
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    LOL - don't blame you, I don't want January kids either!

    What's your goal with the offspring? Carrying an inbred pregnancy doesn't affect the mother, it would affect the offspring. If the kids are going to be meat, then the parentage won't really matter. Dead end, genetically speaking. Same thing with pet animals, especially wethers - if the offspring aren't going to be bred, inbreeding is a moot point.

    The first thing you usually see with inbreeding is a drop in fertility or an ability to carry a pregnancy to term. You don't get deformed monsters or goats straight out of "Deliverance". Occasionally, brother-sister matings are done deliberately. It all depends on your genetics and your goals.

    Lutelyse is a vet-prescribed hormone - not a chemical drug with residue, like with antibiotics or wormers. It's similar to the hormone produced in the body as part of the natural cycle. Injected at the right point in the cycle (at least 11 days post-conception) it destroys the corpus luteum, which ends the pregnancy. I'd say the earlier the better for the goat - it wouldn't be very stressful on her at 2 weeks pregnant, but would be more stressful at 2 months pregnant. There aren't any long term side effects. It would likely be far more targeted and with fewer side effects than black cohosh (a veritable chemical cocktail in plants).

    As far as breeding so close together...milking is a lot more "expensive," metabolically, than carrying a pregnancy. Goats (and people) lose weight when producing milk, not just carrying a pregnancy. You'd expect more loss in body condition at the peak of lactaction rather than the last stages of pregnancy - they milk off excess weight. So, I'd hazard a guess that if you dried up the doe that is 9 weeks fresh, she'd put weight on and have a normal pregnancy. As far as it affecting her future lactations, I think the jury is out. Some say it will harm a first freshener - and on the other extreme, others freshen yearlings as a "starter" pregnancy, to check and make sure everything is working as it should. Goats done both ways can reach over 3000lbs. So who knows.

    At any rate, it's up to you and how these unplanned pregancies affect your breeding plans.

    Cheers!

    Katherine
     
  6. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    4,629
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Jillis is right about this. It was not an issue for me since I am post-menapausal. You younger ladies should probably have your hubbies handle and administer the shot.

    It is gotten from the vet, but I did not find it hard to get. I simply called the vet's office, told them what I wanted and why, and picked it up already drawn up in a needle. I think I paid $11.

    mary
     
  7. Sweet Goats

    Sweet Goats Cashmere goats

    Messages:
    2,023
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Location:
    CO
    The other thing with Lut is, if you have asthma. I have it and I thought I was going to have a big attach. Your chest tightens, and you can't breath. I use a mask and gloves when I have to do it. Even the fumes (not that it smells, you can't smell it at all). it has to be done 7-10 days after the buck got her. Any sooner it might not take. (believe me I know).
    I have that her twin brother bred her thing also. Buck bred twin sister. She had a very beautiful baby, matter of fact she has won lots of awards, and the same buck bred her baby, (his daughter), that baby also has won lots of awards. They win it seems like second place for dam and Daughter out of every show we go to. My other doe and her daughter take first. Now I do believe I was just really lucky, I would never do this on purpose. The buck is sold now, we had to because he really was related to everyone. I hated to sell him because he won best Buck in all the shows we took him to, but I had to for the sake of the does. I was tired of giving them the Luti shots, as I am sure they were tired of getting them.
     
  8. Blue Oak Ranch

    Blue Oak Ranch Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    256
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Oh wow, Lori - how scary, that serious an asthma attack. I had pretty much made up my mind that if I needed to get lute from the vet I might as well have him come out and do it so I wouldn't have to handle it myself (grin). I've heard of the painful periods and the wacky cycles you can have for months if you just spill a drop on your skin. Don't want children, but with my luck...well, I'll have him do it (grin).

    Inbreeding concentrates the genes in your animals. It's how you amplify traits. If they're really good animals to begin with? You often get really good results. Thing is, it can also amplify bad traits. So....know your gene pool and go from there. Most linebreedings start out with parent-offspring or grandparent-grandoffsping breeding, then move to nephew-aunt or uncle-niece, and then cousins and second cousins, and so forth. Full brother-sister is done more rarely, because the degree of genetic relatedness is greater there than in the other combinations. Once, though, won't wreck your life or theirs. I plan on breeding a doe to her uncle next year in hopes of concentrating the genes of a spectacular ancestor (his mom, her grandmom).

    There was an interesting study done in chickens as to how far you could take brother-sister inbreedings (the greatest amount of genetic relatedness). They got as far as 7 generations of brother-sister matings before the fertility dropped so low as to no offspring being produced. Probably what happened to the Egyptian pharaohs.

    Cheers!

    Katherine