8n stalled and won't start

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by .netDude, Sep 11, 2005.

  1. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    This tractor when I got it had coolant in the oil. I replaced the head (new on ebay was just a little higher that having the existing one fluxed). The tractor seemed to run ok, but overheated soon after. I topped off the radiator with about a gallon of pure water, the tractor started and was running ok, but within a minute, just stalled, and won't start. That was yesterday, today, same thing. It turns over, but won't start. I checked the block and can't see any cracks, from the outside at least. Any thoughts?
    Thanks -Greg
     
  2. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

    Messages:
    13,084
    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Location:
    Ontario
    That it turns over is a good sign, did you use a new head gasket and did you do a compresion test after the repair?
     

  3. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

    Messages:
    7,102
    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    In beautiful downtown Sticks, near Belleview, Fl.
    Establish that you have spark, fuel, and compression, without these three it will not run. Secondly, the over heating could be caused by many things, clogged water passages, ignition timing off, no water ciruclation, missing belt on the water pump, cracked block, warped head, ect. That model has a fuel cut off on the left side under the hood, if it is set to the reserve setting you may not have enough fuel getting to the engine. The ignition condenser may also be in question, also touch the coil after the engine stops, is it too hot to touch? That indicates failure. Lastly be sure the fuel cap is venelated enought for air to replace the consumed fuel.
     
  4. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    to get ether in the air intake, would I just spray it in the opening in the air cleaner housing?
     
  5. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

    Messages:
    7,102
    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    In beautiful downtown Sticks, near Belleview, Fl.
    Yes, ether can be sprayed into the air intake, but only a 1/2 second burst at a time, make sure the engine has revolved before adding any more ether. Also you can put gasoline on a rag and hold it over the air intake for the same results. If the engine has ever been known to backfire do not put the gas soaked rag on the intake unless your hands are elsewhere, hold the rag with something fire proof.

    Yes, the round valve is attached to a fuel filter that is glass if its the original item, this is also a reserve control, unscrewed a small bit allows fuel to flow, unscrewed all the way allows the entire tank to empty.

    What is comming out of the exhaust when the engine is turning over? Black, white, blue? Also, when you get it running look into the radiator, circulation is what you wish to see, if there is bubbles in masse, look for a cracked block or defective head gasket.
     
  6. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    8,323
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Location:
    MN
    That works. I typically loosen the rubber air hose & spry right into the carb intake, better results.

    Yes, likely no fuel or no electrical. If it runs on either, then you have a fuel issue.

    If you don't see a spark with the plug out & grounded, then you have an electrical problem. If you have a park but it looks weak, could still be an electrical problem.

    If you have a spark, you have fuel, but it don't run, you could be having the spark at the wrong time.

    --->Paul
     
  7. John Schneider

    John Schneider Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    445
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Location:
    Spruce Grove, Alberta
    I have a 46 2n. A couple things come to mind. First is that this problem of not starting may not be related to the overheating. If you have gas pouring out of the carb, then you most likely have gas in the chambers...which is good. Like what was said above...make sure you have a spark. Pull the plugs one at a time and hold them against the block while someone turns it over...If you have spark and gas and air...it will fire. Also, this sounds weird, but make sure you top up your gas tank on the n's. I don't know why, but my n won't run unless there is a good amount of gas in the tank. I freaked out when I brought mine home because the seller poured a little in the tank and we drove it around his house for a time. I trailered it, pulled it home and it wouldn't start. Filled the tank with gas and it fired right up. There was gas in the fuel bowl and gas coming out of the carb...can't explain it, but I 'run out' of gas with about 1/8th of a tank left. Check your wiring too. Overheating plus a wire against something hot may have melted something.

    Your overheating is another issue. Check to make sure that the thermostat is installed the right way in the hose. Often it is put in backwards. Once you get it started, open the rad cap while it is running and observe. You should see some movement in the fluid. If you don't, you probably have a water pump meltdown. The good thing about the n's is that parts are still available over the counter at NAPA, Ford Ag. Dealers, or E-Bay. Good luck.
     
  8. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    I put a gas soaked rag at the air intake on the carb, and it started, or fired anway, didn't keep running. I took the carb off, cleaned it, pulled the fitting where the gas line goes in and cleaned out that filter. Put it all back together and am getting the same thing. So given that it started with the gas rag at the air intake would indicate it's not getting fuel, right?
     
  9. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

    Messages:
    7,102
    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    In beautiful downtown Sticks, near Belleview, Fl.
    Correct, it appears that your carb is not letting the fuel pass through it yet. Remove the carb, use a tiny wire to push through the openings, verify that they are open with a squirt of WD 40 with the nozzle attached. You must be able to see the fluid passing through to be sure.

    Next, put a short piece of fuel line (rubber or plastic) on to the fuel entry port, hold the carb upper portion up level in front of your eyes, where you can see the float (while disassembled, minus the float chamber), gently blow into the fuel line, the float needs to open when the float just crosses the horizonal line, down from parallel is the point of flow. If the flow happens at any other portion of the arc, adjust the bendable tab that contacts the jet needle. Inspect the needle for scaring or indentations. Replace both the needle and seat if less than perfect.

    The tiny wire needed can be salvaged from a bicycle hand brake cable. The adjustment screws on all carbs worldwide are made to operate with the adjustments open 1 and 1/2 turns from a gentle seated position. Of importance also is the float chamber air vent. If its clogged it can not release the air inside of the chamber which will cause the fuel to compress the air inside stopping the flow. Its a very tiny opening usually located on the upper portion of the carb, just above the float. Its about as big as the periods seen in this writing, easy to miss.
     
  10. HermitJohn

    HermitJohn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,517
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    This is a gravity feed fuel system, right? Too long ago since I messed with one of these. If so when you disconnect line from carb does gas flow out on the ground? My old MH444 had gravity system and rust in tank would plug strainer ever so often. Gravity feed wasnt great idea here anyhow with all the steep hills so I added an electric fuel pump and finally got to just wiring gas can onto tractor and running fuel line from electric pump to it. Easier than cleaning and coating inside of original fuel tank.

    If gas flows from line, then needle valve or float problem in carb. Do yourself a favor and rebuild the carb. These are really simple carburetors though the kits are kinda pricey. Needle valves tend to stick. Can try rapping carb with block of wood to get needle valve to open, but even if it does, probably stick again at an inopportune moment. Needle valve on my old 444 would stick either open or closed ever once in a while. The pressure from the added electric fuel pump helped alot and it rarely stuck closed, but occasionally would stick open and gas pour out the carb. Little tap and it would work again.
     
  11. Virg

    Virg Active Member

    Messages:
    34
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Moopups was right,the carb has been starving the engine of fuel. Too much air, not enough gas. Causes a lean condition which burns much hotter. Probly had the throttle up to get it to go. Hot Engine. Burnt Gasket. The big screw on the carb is the mixture control and has a real small hole that goes down to the gas resivoir [bowl].Engine vaccum picks up this fuel through the center of the carb[venturi]. Clean er out. Sometimes, bein your case, grit has built up and might take a doing with a guitar string.
     
  12. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    Thanks for the replies. I finally got the whole carb thing worked out (I think so anyway, except maybe an adjustment). I installed a rebuilt one (a long, frustrating story). The tractor has been sitting outside where it stalled for about a month, and we've had a bit of rain. I got the thing to start, and what I think is water, GUSHED out of the oil fill cap. It did stop eventually, but the oil pressure was below 20 after that. Prior to the stall, it was around 40. The engine sounds like crap, and I get a bit of white smoke, especially when increasing the throttle. It didn't stall, but I didn't want to keep it running too long given the low oil pressure. I didn't see any fluid movement in the radiator, but I only checked shortly after it started. I have to keep the throttle 3/4 full to keep it running, but when the lever is at the level, it seems like it used to when at an idle, is this a carb adjustment? What's up w/ the water pouring out of the filler cap? Prior to this whole event, I did replace the head and head gasket in response to seeing some water in the oil.
     
  13. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

    Messages:
    7,102
    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    In beautiful downtown Sticks, near Belleview, Fl.
    Check all the fluids, any white color means water in the engine, it must be replaced before doing anything else. As far as circulation in the radiator goes, it might not have run enought for the thermostat to open. Set all carb adjustments to 1 and 1/2 open from a soft seated position, this is where you start to make adjustments. The white smoke indicates water in the fuel. Run a compression check to determine if the head gasket is blown.
     
  14. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    how do I replace the water in the engine, or where you refering to replacing the engine?
    I replaced the head gasket when doing the head, so that shouldn't be the culprit.
     
  15. leoaloha

    leoaloha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Location:
    Hawaii
    is water missing from your radiator?
    Change the oil and oil filter.
    DO A COMPRESSION TEST!
    This will test for a cracked block. A cracked block can let water in the engine. You can also check while the engine runs if you get it started again, look for air bubbles in the radiator. This is not a good indicator as a compression test is. If the compression test is OK, we need to test the sleeves in the engine. Best done with a radiator pressure tester but they are kind of exspenive. It puts about 16 pounds of pressure on the cooling system and watch for a pressure drop in a short period of time. If this test fails, then the head, head gasket or sleeves are suspect. If you changes the head and gasket I would say the sleeves to engine block seals are bad or the sleeves are cracked. To verify, you could remove the oil pan, make sure the radiator is full and see if water drops on the floor from the inside of the engine. Sleeve/piston kits are about 150$ on the net. Should put in rod bearings while you are in there.

    Let us know what happens - I use to work at a Ford tractor dealer, have done a lot of these
     
  16. John Hill

    John Hill Grand Master

    Messages:
    491
    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    I noticed this phrase
    Now this is something that just should not happen!

    If my memory serves me right the 8N is a sleeved motor and the cylinder head has been replaced, was the motor turned while the head was off? That, or something else, could be the cause of the sleeve(s) breaking their seal inside the engine block. I suggest check the dipstick for an apparent rise in oil level which would indicate water having got into the crankcase. Tends to tie in with your having to add a whole gallon of water after a very short run
     
  17. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    No, the motor wasn't turned with the head off, and I had to add a gallon only because it was only partially filled before running it.

    The radiator fluid level is about 3 inches below the top, probably no where near enough to match all of the water that came out of the oil filler tube.

    Can I get a compression tester at a store like AutoZone? What should the compression be (think I remember 90lbs?)? Would low compression automatically mean a cracked block, or could sleeves also cause low compression? It does start now (after replacing the carb), so I'll try this next.
    Do the sleeves have to be pressed in by a machine shop? For that matter, how would you suggest getting them out? (think I read that trying to pry them out is not a good idea).

    Sorry for all the questions, just don't have the dough to drag it to the Ford dealer.
     
  18. leoaloha

    leoaloha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Lets do the compression test first. Yes you can get one at the auto zone. The compession should be around 80 psi, but dont worry about this the main thing is that all cylanders are within 10% of each other. Let us know what the reading for cyls 1 2 3 4 are and we'll go from there
     
  19. .netDude

    .netDude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    462
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Location:
    Western NY
    compression test results:
    1 (closest to the front) - 70-75
    2 - 90-95
    3 - 75-80
    4 (closest to steering wheel) - 75-80

    The plugs were pretty much coated with oil when I removed them.
     
  20. Beeman

    Beeman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,977
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Location:
    East TN
    I've read and reread all of your posts trying to figure out where to start to try and give you advice.
    You say you replaced the head and the head gasket because you found coolant in the oil, correct? It's been a long time since I've seen the head off of an 8N, is there any water at all sealed by the head gasket? I didn't think there would be seeing how it's a flat head with sleeves. Did you physically see a reason for the original water in the oil problem, did the head gasket seal any water passages?
    My 8N has been sitting outside for over 20 years with no water getting into the crankcase. I believe you have a cracked block or sleeve to get water in the crankcase. Did this tractor have antifreeze in it when all of this began?