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good hay = bad milk?

4K views 26 replies 10 participants last post by  Melinda29 
#1 · (Edited)
I recently bought some incredible alfalfa hay from an old friend for an incredible price. It is second cutting and so leafy that is basically falls apart when you touch it. My goats love it and are eating it like candy. Previously they had primarily alfalfa pellets that cost 5x as much, and a bit of old stemmy alfalfa hay that had been rained on (all I could get this year). So I was VERY excited to get this new stuff!

I fed this alfalfa for the first time on Monday afternoon. The milk from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and today has all tasted grassy, and not in a good way :/. I haven't changed my milk routine, the only other thing that changed was the does got dewormed for the first time (Cydectin cattle pour on given orally) last Friday. Would that affect the milk?

Another weird thing--they gave more than twice their normal amounts of milk on Wednesday and Thursday. But it was just those two days. Would that be from the hay or from killing the worms? Or both? Or just some random fluke?
 
#2 ·
It will make them milk, but too much will give an off flavor, it has a lot more protein, and they have to get rid of some of the byproducts. They will excrete stuff in there milk as well as kidneys. You will probably notice a difference in stall odor soon. Just give them the alfalfa after milking, a small enough quantity that they can clean up.
 
#3 ·
They live outside, not in a stall. We do intense rotational grazing, so they get moved every week at the very most. Usually every few days.

I'm confused--they've been getting free choice alfalfa all along, this is just a different kind. Are you saying that this would have significantly more protein than horse quality alfalfa pellets (Standlee brand)? That is more than 90% of what they've eaten this year. They got a little of the stemmy hay, but mostly pellets.

Do you not offer hay free choice to your goats? Only after milking? I don't think they would be able to eat enough just after milking to last them all day. And now that we've had a hard freeze, there really isn't enough forage in their pasture to last them all day, either.
 
#4 ·
Free choice hay, alfalfa either right after or during milking. We use chaffaye mixed with grain while milking. Chaffaye has consistent quality and palatability without a lot of waste. One field of alfalfa is different than the next and one cutting is different than others. Some alfalfa is more like hay, but second or third cutting with lots of leaves can throw quite a bit of protein their way, and you can notice extra ammonia in their urine if they hang out in a barn. I would not give free choice alfalfa to anything I wanted to have a long productive life. Alfalfa and hay are not interchangeable terms. Goats need roughage, they need something to fill their rumens and feed their rumen bugs. They will gladly eat only alfalfa, in hay form or pellet form, or ensiled alfalfa and not eat any hay, if you let them.
 
#5 ·
Okay, help me out here....I have never ever heard or read that I shouldn't be feeding alfalfa hay free choice to dairy goats. Everything I have ever heard or read has been the complete opposite--that good alfalfa hay is the very best you can possibly feed them. That you can get away with a grass hay only if you provide enough protein and calcium in some other form, but that legume hay is really the best.

I have always been told that the fiber from alfalfa hay is plenty high to provide all the roughage they need, and their protein and calcium needs are also well met with alfalfa.

I know protein and fiber content will vary from field to field, but I'm confused by the comment, "Some alfalfa is more like hay..." Alfalfa hay is a legume hay, as opposed to a grass hay. Both are hay. Do you mean some alfalfa hay is more like straw, when it is very stemmy?

Anyone feel free to chime in here. I really want to do best by my animals. Free choice alfalfa will cut their lives short? I have never heard anything like this before.
 
#6 ·
Alfalfa hay can provide all the roughage they need, if they eat the stems. Alfalfa hay can run anywhere from 10 to 25 % protein. The problem is made worse when specific animals select leaves and leave the stems for animals lower on the pecking order. If they are getting 20% protein and not enough roughage, they are ripe for a host of problems. Whether it cuts their life short is up to how those problems are managed. As far as their productive life, yes, it can be shortened drastically. I have seen books and blogs that recommend that goat owners offer free choice alfalfa to all classes of goat. I usually cringe, knowing that "alfalfa" can mean anything from a good idea to a really bad one. You can contact your local extension agent to get a test done on your hay. That is the only way you can know what kind of protein levels you are hitting. You can get adequate levels of protein for non working animals in the right mixed grass and clover hay.
 
#7 ·
You can get a MUN test done on a milk sample. That stands for milk urea nitrogen. You can see what the nitrogen and urea levels are like in the milk. If they are high, then in addition to making the milk taste funny, you know that you are working their kidneys hard, too. If you have any males, I would be taking them off the alfalfa if they have been getting free choice alfalfa.
 
#8 ·
Okay, thanks for the information. Again, this is total opposite to what I have heard, even from a good goat vet. I was told that keeping males off of alfalfa is an old wives tale, that they actually get urinary calculi from not having enough calcium or having the calcium phosphorous ratio below 2:1, so alfalfa is the best choice for them since the ratio is usually higher.
 
#10 ·
We usually fed nothing but 20%+ alfalfa free choice to our girls during the winter months when they were inside full time. Never seemed to have off tasting milk. But of course every herd is different.
Our billys ran with the herd and they ate the same hay without any issues either.
 
#11 ·
I have also been told that alfalfa is great for goats. I am planning on starting a dairy farm next year and I planted a field of alfalfa for over winter hay. I have planted clover in my bee yard/orchard. My plan was to graze them on four fields, rotating weekly and follow them with my chicken tractor to keep the insects at bay. Should I plant clover in the fields that the goats will be foraging in?
 
#12 · (Edited)
Alfalfa as part of a forage is great. I personally do not like it for sole hay for my dairy goats, though many use it successfully. I have not noticed alfalfa level to affect flavor, however - mostly production.

Alfalfa (high calcium) IS implicated in the formation of Calcium Oxalate crystals in male animals. Crystal formation is multifactorial, however, and so anecdotal stories about one herd doing fine does not imply that it is safe in all situations to feed a very high amount of calcium to male animals. The calcium to phosphorous ratio is critical, as is promotion of adequate or increased water consumption, urethral size (castrates vs intact males may play a role), Local forage/soil types and growing environment, daily variation in individual physiology, and a genetic predisposition are all very important in stone formation.

PREVENTION by feeding a proper Ca to P ratio without excess Ca or P than requirements is probably the most important thing you can actively do as a producer (along with water access and quality of course), as ammonium chloride has recently been researched and shown to cause only TRANSIENT urine acidification. Prolonged use shows decreased efficacy and urine pH will turn back to 'normal' alkalotic with extended use. This can be curbed somewhat by dosing intermittently with AC to help dissolve any forming stones.

It is important to note that Calcium Oxalate crystals and many other stones CAN NOT be dissolved and are a surgical emergency if the cannot pass. Struvite stones are dissolvable but are still a medical and/or a surgical emergency.

Water deprivation prevention seems obvious but not completely considered in all cases it seems. It can include deterrence such as soiled or medicated water, iced over water in the winter time in addition to the usual first assumed of 'running out of water'. Decreased water consumption causes a concentration of urine and waste products including calcium, as well as a potential altered pH of urine causing precipitation of certain solid crystals).

As for milk taste, that can vary greatly depending on many, many factors. Diet is one. Instead of switching back and forth rapidly, allow adjustment time whenever you change diet.

Personally, I hate leafy alfalfa as I see the leaves precipitating from the stems right into the dirt. Sure, the does sometimes will lick them up so they're not wasted, but if they hit the ground and are licked up I may be watching a very nice, rapid route for parasite infection occurring. ;) The majority of the weight of pure alfalfa hay is stem, which is poorly digestible and of low nutritive value. Usually waste is quite high. As stated by someone previously, the bossy does get access to fresh hay while the less dominant does are left with the stemmy leftovers - further predisposing them to 'culling' with lower intake, lower milk production, poorer reproduction, poorer growth, increased susceptibility to parasites etc. This can be remedied with increased bunk space/feeder availability however, but this means increased labor usually.

Personally here, I feed a nice high quality, soft green grass or grass/alfalfa mix hay and supplement with alfalfa pellets in the feed. My goats generally HATE alfalfa pellets but eat enough of them when I mix with their grain on the milkstand for lack of options. ;) Hay quality can certainly vary year to year due to growing conditions. I have one hay seller that I buy from because we're most impressed through the years with his hay - and he provides a steady supply without us having to store a bulk amount through the year. Sometimes that means I end up with a lower quality hay than I'd like, but never mouldy or disease-causing - unlike other hay I've had. ;)

My bucks generally don't get grain but if they do, they receive the kid feed which is actually an 18% lamb grower with a coccidistat and ammonium chloride. The reason I use this feed is because it's balanced in Calcium and Phosphorous. I use it to feed my kids (including wethers), but feed it to the bucks so that my father does not have to bother with buying a separate feed for the bucks. It's ease of management more than anything. All goats receive the same hay for the most part, with the bucks usually receiving less quality hay than the does for the majority of the year. If the hay has alfalfa in it, so be it - If I can't conveniently avoid it, it is a risk I assume at that point.
 
#14 ·
We feed only alfalfa as that's all that is grown here. Grass hay has to be shipped in and is twice the price. Have you checked you fields? Since you pasture them there could be something growing out there that is causing the off flavors.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Here is a good extension article about off flavor milk and tracking it down. I'd feed alfalfa hay after milking. :)

https://extension.psu.edu/troubleshooting-milk-flavor-problems
Like another poster, grass hay is very difficult to find here. Alfalfa hay available here is both excellent quality and very cheap ($5 for an 80 pound bale).

I really don't have time to add another step to the milking chores by feeding them alfalfa hay *only* after milking is done. So it's either free choice alfalfa hay (what I'm doing now and the milk tastes grassy) or free choice alfalfa pellets (what I was doing before, when the milk tasted great, but cost 5X more). Or free choice something else, if I can find it without costing a fortune.

Would you agree that free choice alfalfa will shorten an animal's life span, or productive life span?
 
#18 ·
Directly, no, I don't think alfalfa will do those things. It is a high protein and high calcium feed, however, so is not ideal free choice feed for certain groups of animals. Dry animals may become too fat and have metabolic problems with kiddings (both ketosis from being overweight and/or milk fever due to improper calcium regulation) or be difficult to breed and settle. It probably should not be fed exclusively to males of any age for fear of stones, but mature males will also likely be prone to becoming overweight and have a lot of urine burn due to urine pH.

That being said, there are people who anecdotally do so successfully. A lot of factors go into successfully feeding extremely high rates of alfalfa from farm to farm so keep that in mind when working out the kinks. :)
 
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#19 ·
It is not alfalfa in the diet that is cause for concern. It is protein levels that get up over 20% that can cause problems. Alfalfa can get up over that threshold. Bossy does can get up over that level by picking out the choicest parts of alfalfa that is testing lower in protein.
 
#20 ·
I give my girls free choice good grass hay and alfalfa pellets, and have no problems with off-flavors in milk. My boys get good grass hay and alfalfa hay, and it's in a feeder that does not allow them to throw the stems on the ground. I refill the feeder when the stems are gone. During rut, I up the alfalfa proportion somewhat, and also add a mineral/grain block like the Purina goat block to keep them in decent condition.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I thought I’d update in case anyone else has this issue in the future.

It definitely is the new alfalfa causing the off flavor, and it’s not urea in the milk from too high of protein of that new alfalfa. There is no way that it would cause urea to build up that quickly—that is a slow process that takes time to build up. I’ve been alternating the feed and testing the milk every other day over the last few weeks:
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk

So I do believe it was the new alfalfa imparting its flavor into the milk. This makes sense—when I give them onion scraps, the milk tastes like onions the next day. My youngest children don’t seem to notice the flavor, so I’m going to continue feeding this hay free choice until it gets used up and just give them the milk.

I should mention that feeding something “free choice” is not the same thing as “exclusively” feeding. In addition to the above rations, my milking does each got a pound of whole grains and fruit/vegetable scraps each day, plus the dry leaves that fall off the trees in their pasture this fall (the grass is pretty much dead). I would doubt that most people who feed *anything* free choice are feeding it exclusively.
 
#22 ·
Melinda, I know that I am WAY late in responding to this topic & I was wondering if the milk flavor improved any while you were feeding them? Did you check with the vet on the dewormer? I usually use an Ivermectin on deworming goats (not constantly) but there are some dewormers that are not recommended to use while you are milking your Does or at least shouldn't drink it for x-amt of days. That could very well be what affected your goat's milk.

Also, I have never had ANY problems what's so ever feeding my goat herd Alfalfa Hay, pure/straight, its never affected their milk any. I prefer feeding 2nd cutting because 1st & 3rd are always too stemmy & they don't always eat the excess stems. 3rd & 4th cutting (at least in my area) are deemed (mainly 4th) Dairy Hay because its WAY hotter then the rest. But when I'm milking (by hand) I give them a scoop (usually its abt a 2 # scoop) of Sweet Feed (rolled grain with molasses) while they are in the milk stand. I've also given them hay, but the feed area is not deep enough for a flake of hay.

As for the comment Alfalfa and hay are interchangable......that's because when Alfalfa is cut & baled....it IS hay. There's different types of grass hay. But Hay isn't in a separate category from Alfalfa. So, not sure what that poster was referring to.
I have fed my 2 bucks the same thing I have fed my girls, with the exception of sweet feed unless it was to give them a treat for being good (my dairy buck had a mean streak & my Meat buck was nice, but it didn't improve their smell at all LOL) But the alfalfa hay didn't harm them medically at all.

Goats are foragers & definitely need more than leaves of Alfalfa, and what they eat (including a dewormer) can change their milks flavor, which is why they shouldn't have access to any stinky plant (such as mustard weed, sage, etc), then its not a good thing. But any sweet plant, like Kochia, makes their milk sweeter.

Hope you discovered what the problem is. But as a safety thing, I wouldn't deworm any goat that you are going to consume the milk of while she's milking. Deworm prior to her coming into milk & make sure it has enough time to get through her system, even if it doesn't have a come off date. Could be any where from a couple weeks to a month. (The vet's will know & I'd just tack on a couple extra weeks) & either let their baby's have that milk or if you have pigs you can feed it to them, not every dewormer (even coming through milk) is safe for dogs or cats to consume let alone us.
 
#23 ·
I thought I’d update in case anyone else has this issue in the future.

It definitely is the new alfalfa causing the off flavor, and it’s not urea in the milk from too high of protein of that new alfalfa. There is no way that it would cause urea to build up that quickly—that is a slow process that takes time to build up. I’ve been alternating the feed and testing the milk every other day over the last few weeks:
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk
2 days of alfalfa pellets=good milk
2 days of my old alfalfa hay=good milk
2 days of the new alfalfa hay=bad milk

So I do believe it was the new alfalfa imparting its flavor into the milk. This makes sense—when I give them onion scraps, the milk tastes like onions the next day. My youngest children don’t seem to notice the flavor, so I’m going to continue feeding this hay free choice until it gets used up and just give them the milk.

I should mention that feeding something “free choice” is not the same thing as “exclusively” feeding. In addition to the above rations, my milking does each got a pound of whole grains and fruit/vegetable scraps each day, plus the dry leaves that fall off the trees in their pasture this fall (the grass is pretty much dead). I would doubt that most people who feed *anything* free choice are feeding it exclusively.
Are they getting the onion scraps anywhere close to the days that your also feeding them the new hay? it could just be the fact that they're eating onions that's throwing off the flavor of the milk. Why are you feeding onions to them anyway? What's the reason or benefit of doing that, other than to get rid of your scraps? Onion is strong, pungent odor 'veggie', anything else that is will affect the flavor of the milk, for more than just a day after they've eaten it.
 
#25 ·
Are they getting the onion scraps anywhere close to the days that your also feeding them the new hay? it could just be the fact that they're eating onions that's throwing off the flavor of the milk. Why are you feeding onions to them anyway? What's the reason or benefit of doing that, other than to get rid of your scraps? Onion is strong, pungent odor 'veggie', anything else that is will affect the flavor of the milk, for more than just a day after they've eaten it.
Sigh.

I don’t intentionally feed them onions. I have four children who like to “help” with the goats. A couple of times they have shared onion scraps with the goats because they’ve seen me give them other veggie scraps.
 
#26 ·
Well, sorry to cause you to "sigh" but according to your own post .... dated January 23, 2017 you stated....."This makes sense—when I give them onion scraps, the milk tastes like onions the next day."
So......while you may be annoyed or irritated with my comment.....you, yourself, stated that you give them onion scraps.
Hence the reason for my question of :"Are they getting onion scraps anywhere close to the days that your also feeding them the new hay?"
Because it is very odd & unusual for Alfalfa to give milk any sort of negative flavor & I was mistakenly asking questions to try to see what the culprit actually was & since I feed Alfalfa Hay to my own livestock, I was interested in what you were feeding, what they were eating or being given as a way to figure out the change in their milk & as something to watch for in my own herd.

Sorry to not have guessed that it might have been kids feeding the onions to the goats, despite your own words. I will start guessing in the future. :) Thank you

Sigh.

I don’t intentionally feed them onions. I have four children who like to “help” with the goats. A couple of times they have shared onion scraps with the goats because they’ve seen me give them other veggie scraps.
 
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