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Heres the CCW challenge of the week

3K views 24 replies 10 participants last post by  Jolly 
#1 ·
say your 80 year old aunt who is still mobile and in good health says I have been thinking about getting a CCL and carrying.

so you take her to the range she likes to shoot and has for some time shot a browning buck mark 22lr and a 22lr rifle.

she tries a few different guns a 6 inch barrel Gp100 with 38 special is doable recoil wise but much to large and heavy to carry
the browning hi-power 9mm is to much recoil for the old hands.
trying rifles because the other question was something for around the house
she also tried a AR-15 but said to much recoil.
she has tried shotguns in the past all had to much recoil.

what ever it is it has to use available factory ammo for carry and practice it would be nice if the ammo cost wasn't overly expensive.

so what do you try next , perhaps 22lr in a package she is or becomes proficient with is better than nothing at all.
 
#2 ·
A small Smith in 22lr might work. Doc has RA & MS and can handle and carry an S&W .38 M&P Bodyguard. She likes the built in laser. She's getting a Buckmark for practice since she can rack it easily. She has racked a micro 9mm. It's not something she can do regularly.
 
#3 ·
I'd look at some of the 380 autos.
A 22 is "better than nothing" but I'd not make that a first choice.
A SIG P230 or P232 is small and has little recoil but offers more power and reliability than any small 22.

Weight 520 g (18.5 oz) [1]
Length 17 cm (6.6 in) [1]
Barrel length 9.1 cm (3.6 in) [1]
Width 3.0 cm (1.2 in) [1]
Height 12 cm (4.7 in) [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P230

What she really needs is a "home" gun and a carry gun.
 
#4 · (Edited)
my other thought is , I tried for the first time last week Mechanix M-pact gloves these are work gloves with a special foam sewn into parts of your hand that absorb more impact.

for one of the tests in the video about the foam they drop a steel ball on a sheet of glass with a traditional impact foam and this new formula on the regular foam it breaks the glass the same ball from the same distance with the new foam and it does not , it reminded me of those commercials for beds that you can have a glass of wine on one side and drop a bowling ball and the glass of wine on the other side of the bed doesn't spill because the foam isolates the impact.

I have to admit the video wasn't what sold me and I was looking for a good pair of washable work gloves that would give me the protection of leather but wouldn't be an issue to get wet and these had very good reviews and were only 2 dollars more than the ones without the impact protection.

I shot 2 stages of action pistol with them on , I had been wearing them to set up the stages , the target stands have splinters and bits of copper jacket stuck in them and are hard on the hands during set up , starting you stage bleeding is no fun and thought why not try shooting with them also to see if I could I am not recoil sensitive but I though wow , that seemed to cut the recoil in about half from already very manageable Glock 17 recoil.
it also increased grip because the material use in the gloves seems to have more traction than skin I could index and for finger rack the slide and where it was smooth not where there were serrations .
2 fingers to rack a G17 slide takes some strength but a lot less when your fingers are gripping and not slipping

ok I have to say getting used to the trigger with a glove on is a little weird but I spent some time on it dry fire training and it is getting better.

so my thought is to have her try a pair of these gloves and try some other 9mm pistols , the hi-power does have a high bore axis and that may not help. if gloves could make a 9mm or lighter weight 38 comfortable for training , in a high stress situation adrenaline will flow and training will take over and recoil will be hardly noticed.

327 federal with 32 h&r long ammo might work but they are not easy to find and ammo is not inexpensive or easy to find.

38 wad cutters might be an option but even that isn't a easy stop off and pick them up in town without having the gun shop bring you some in

and try some 380s

at least with the gloves and trying common guns your only out the price of gloves and ammo and the cloves can be used for gardening an such.
 
#5 ·
Wearing glove will help during practice, but aren't practical for an 80 year old woman to wear all the time.

Using two fingers to "slingshot" the slide isn't as easy as using the whole hand to hold the slide back while pushing the frame forward:


1. Grasp your gun with a dominant hand, with your trigger finger outside the trigger guard and with your non-dominant hand grasp the upper and rear end of the slide. Position your hand so the heel of your hand is nearest you with your other four fingers over the slide and grasping on the outer side. Not pinching it from the rear between your thumb and index finger. CAUTION: do not let your hand cover the ejection port as your hand can get severely pinched in it during the sliding action and blocking the ejection port can cause a jam.

Safety Note: As you grasp the slide, your trigger finger will naturally clasp as well, you must consciously prevent your finger from moving onto the trigger while you work the slide.



2. Bring the gun toward your middle belly (midline) pointing in a safe direction with your dominant elbow braced in your side. Simply drive your gun hand , or punch firmly (very firmly) forward while holding the slide firmly in place toward your midline, so that it does not move with the gun. Think of this motion as punching the gun forward, not pulling the slide backwards. CAUTION: No matter how much you struggle with this movement, do not let your trigger finger slip into the trigger guard.



3. Once the slide is pulled back to its rearmost position, release the slide completely. Do not "follow" or"ride" the slide with your hand, let it go. The slide must slide unrestricted to properly chamber the round.
http://thewellarmedwoman.com/Racking-The-Slide-Of-Your-Gun
 
#6 ·
I normally use my whole hand but I was trying different things with the gloves on , I wasn't advocating teaching a two finger grasp.

nor is wearing gloves all he time practical

I was thinking about compromises like dry fire train without gloves live fire train with gloves , and if you need the gun for an emergency you will be concentrating on the emergency and not the recoil.

she didn't drop the gun , she didn't not hit the target , she just said it was uncomfortable , and a few minutes of uncomfortable in an emergency isn't so bad as long as you can find a way to practice.
 
#11 ·
I have been thinking , having shot a fair number of racoon with a 22 revolver and having shot a few with a 9mm also now , a good hit from a 22 puts them down much faster than a less than ideal hit from a 9mm

I did a little looking and found this article https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense/

as to a single six , I think a point and click interface in a SD gun is important.
 
#12 ·
for home defense a carbine is going to make a lot more sense along the same lines a 10/22 with 25rnd BX mag and CCI stingers
but I also think a 9mm carbine would not have to much recoil and would make a better option.

for a 22mag handgun to carry the Ruger LCR 22 mag with hornady critical defence seems like the best option going

not sure why ruger can't make the 8 round 22lr LCR with a 22 mag cylinder that would seem like a good choice

although perhaps it is because with the CCI stingers you can get very close to 22 mag velocities in a short barrel now if only there was a flash suppressant in the stingers they are little fireballs.
the issue with a carry gun and 22lr is that the rebated bullets are not nearly as moisture resistant as other bullets that fit tight in the case but I guess if they all stil went bang in my trap line pistol after a week of being carried around they are likely to in a carry gun also
 
#13 ·
for a 22mag handgun to carry the Ruger LCR 22 mag with hornady critical defence seems like the best option going
That wouldn't be that much smaller than a 38 revolver which would greatly increase the power levels.

A J-frame S&W and some rubber grips that cushion the back of the frame would be just as easy to handle.
 
#14 ·
it isn't about smaller , if a full size hi-power with factory 115gr 9mm ammo is to much recoil for 80 some year old hands , a j-frame even with rubber grips is very likely to be also not that she shouldn't try renting one and trying it especially with the 110 gr hornady critical defense standard pressure 38spl in something like an SP101 with a little weight to it might make it manageable.
 
#16 ·
it isn't about smaller , if a full size hi-power with factory 115gr 9mm ammo is to much recoil for 80 some year old hands , a j-frame even with rubber grips is very likely to be also
I suspect it's not so much the actual recoil as it is the gun is just too large for her hands.
Improper fit will make perceived recoil greater.


I also noticed this from the American Rifleman article:
So, on average, you can expect a .45 ACP to damage about 3.79 cubic inches of tissue and a 9 mm Luger to damage about 3 cubic inches of tissue.
The best .22 WMR loadings will damage less than 1 cubic inch of tissue.
 
#15 ·
Having a nasty case of RA I have been through this as far as a handgun.

I originally bought a Ruger SR22. After shooting a clip through it my wrists were useless for days. The biggest problem was muzzle lift as my wrists are weak to begin with. Then with some suggestions I tried a Ruger Mark IV 22. Recoil and muzzle lift was much better but the gun felt so out of balance in my hands. Top heavy if you will.

After a long discussion with a couple people in the know I changed tactics. They were telling me I needed some real mass in a handgun to ward off the muzzle lift problems - even to the point of suggesting a 1911 in .40 caliber. I was looking over the used counter one day in the shop and saw a very nice S&W M&P Pro 9mm (not the shield). Bought that and now I am in business as far as shooting. The heavier balanced gun made a world of difference for me.

But....it is not the easiest gun for concealed carry. So I then tried a Ruger LR38 revolver - I just like my revolvers. It is not as easy on me as the Pro 9 but tolerable. I now have a couple nice holsters - it makes for a very nice small concealed weapon for me.
 
#21 ·
My wife settled with .380 Ruger mainly because most in the office have one, so there is always Ammo in a fire fight.

big rockpile
 
#25 ·
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=695&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=22P

10oz, tip-up loading, so you don't have to rack the slide. When shooting at someone, rarely does the guy being shot at consider the caliber and I've helped do the posts on more folks shot with a .22 than anything else.

Around the house:

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/rimfire/model-795/model-795

Another 22. Inexpensive, and dependable. Very light, fairly short and not front heavy. If her eyes aren't the best, put a red dot on it.

So...two gun battery, common ammunition, easy to load, negligible recoil. Yep, it's not a loudenblaster magnum, but it WILL get the job done, considering the needs of the person.
 
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