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  #21  
Old 01/09/12, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerj View Post
if your dog is where a trapper is setting traps, I would say you don't have control of your animal.

and I know that most of even rural areas in Mn have some sort of leash laws.

Just one of the typical COUNTY pet ordinances in the state.

I am trying to learn how to snare/trap as well as our families own dogs. It ----es me off to no end that people blame others for failing to control their own animal.

Sorry for the loss of your pet. But look in the mirror for your blame. Not to the trapper.
I love this mentality. Here is a reality check for you. Public land belongs to all Minnesotans not just trappers. The trapper community is rather small and I get tired of the argument that rights are being taken away when nobody here is trying to end the sport. Do you ever think of other peoples rights? There are far more people in MN that enjoy hiking, birdwatching, grouse hunting, running hounds, etc then their are trappers so don't forget they have rights too. Everyone should be able to enjoy public land with out the fear of losing a pet animal or even a human getting hurt. To say that if your walking a trail and a trapper was their first you shouldn't be on it is ridiculous, especially when most trappers place their traps with in 20 feet of a road or trail so they can check them from their vehicles. There are not leash laws in most counties so you may want to get your facts straight and even where there are most state a dog can be off leash as long as its in the verbal control of its owner. Then to say a dogs not under control because its not on a leash is ridiculous, my bird dog is always under verbal control but we aren't hunting in a field so you do lose visibility for a minute or two. Comparing that to a dog running at large is hardly the same thing and especially on public land where I have the right to hunt with my dog.
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  #22  
Old 01/09/12, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by farmerj View Post
I did read the news story AND the 61 comments to it.

By your own admission it took you over 1/2 hour to find your dog. THAT is not having control of it.

I have had to put down enough animals as a result of hunting/trapping accidents. To include my cousins pet of 12 years who had his muzzle blown off in his hands by his brother.

I don't blame the hunter or the traps.
I read all the comments as well including the ones the man who claimed he has killed over 3,000 in one season. Nice guy, and if true I doubt that is what they mean by population control.

Anyway a few points I would like to make:
-If no one is saying they cannot use the traps what is the big huge deal about putting them up a pole? There really is none except lazy people who do not want to do the extra effort to be safer on public lands.

-His dog was hunting with him, not some housepet running wild through the forest. She is was a member of his family but she was also a working dog.
If your dog is out flushing birds I would like to see you find it quicker, and even if you had, I doubt the dog would have made it anyway.

-Never once has Fishhead said here or in the news article that he wants to ban traps or stop trapping. All he wants to do is have the rotten things up a pole. I also doubt the guys who say they never killed a dog, cat etc in their traps are being totally honest, I bet if they find them there they would toss them in the woods and say nothing.

-If you happen to be cavalier about the death of your animals it does not mean everyone else feels the same way as you do. His dog was important to him so cut him some slack.
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Last edited by thaiblue12; 01/09/12 at 12:48 PM. Reason: typo
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  #23  
Old 01/09/12, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shygal View Post
Suppose a small child stepped in it? "Sorry for the loss of your kid, but look in the mirror for your blame". Do you ever have ANYTHING nice to say? yeesh!
Because there is such a thing as personal responsibilty.

We have enough laws to already deal with. It's a an education issue, not needing another law.
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  #24  
Old 01/09/12, 11:21 AM
 
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Reality check?

Traps are designed to do one thing.



Kill.

Do I want to see a family pet killed, hell no.

But an animal 100 yards from its owner is hardly under verbal control either.

As to being cavalier. Right. It hit all of us hard enough we put the guns away for a long time
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  #25  
Old 01/09/12, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerj View Post
Reality check?
But an animal 100 yards from its owner is hardly under verbal control either
A trained bird dog most certainly IS under verbal control of it's owner at that distance.The entire purpose of having a bird dog is for the dog to go out a distance from it's owner, into brush and cover a human can't crawl through, and flush out birds.

To say that obviously fishhead was at fault because it took him a half hour to find a small, still, brown body is not only cruel, but unrealistic. If it took him a half hour to find a dog in a leghold, that could yelp or move, might, MIGHT, have meant that the dog was too far from him in the first place, but in any kind of cover at all, how can you think he'd be able to just magic up his poor springer's little corpse?

NOT THAT IT WOULD HAVE MATTERED. The pointer, Sue's owner was at her side within seconds and could only watch her die.

Fishhead is not trying to ban trapping, he is trying to SAVE trapping AND dogs. Just like the cruel, barbed leghold traps of the past were banned in favor of the more humane legholds of today, he wants the killer traps where they can't kill non-target animals. Because irresponsible trappers have killed too many dogs (and one is too many) and are looking to get trapping banned for everyone. Birddoggers and beaglers and coonhunters outnumber trappers, and people who go out to state land for the sole purpose of letting their pets off leash outnumber even those who hunt with dogs. None of them care about your right to trap as they hold the still warm body of one they loved, who'd still be alive if you had taken a simple precaution of setting a trap off the ground.

If YOU want to save trapping, you'll realize that you are in the minority, a minority who is currently destroying other people's right to the use of public land. Yes, you have the right to trap, but they have the right to have their dogs on state land.
As my Dad used to say, "Your right to swing your fist ends an inch before the other fellow's nose begins." You can rail about how you have the right to keep swinging and everyone else just needs to duck, (I don't think you'll win that fight) or you can trap in a way that doesn't destroy other people's pets, property, or use of public land.

Or you can go on callously blaming others and destroy any sympathy that anyone might have for trappers. Yes, I'm sure that will work to save your right to trap. You should keep doing that.
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  #26  
Old 01/09/12, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerj View Post
Because there is such a thing as personal responsibilty.

We have enough laws to already deal with. It's a an education issue, not needing another law.
Yes, and the trappers have the responsibility to set their traps in a safe manner. These are not.

The dogs have a right to be there. The trappers know that setting them in that manner, can kill dogs. Therefore it is their responsibility to set their traps safely.
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  #27  
Old 01/09/12, 12:48 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: northcentral MN
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I finally got the stats from the DNR. This year puppy died in Albert Lea and another dog was killed in this area and the DNR staff that I've been contacting said he has no idea how many dogs die each year. Their stats don't even report Sue and she was in the newspaper. The puppy died in a culvert so that meant it was caught in a killer trap even smaller than the one that killed Penni.

As others have pointed out this is NOT about banning trapping or even about banning killer traps. It's simply requiring those deadly traps be placed where they cannot kill more dogs just like at least 18 other states require. We have safe options that are as good or better so there really isn't any justification to continue killing our dogs. There never was in the first place.
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  #28  
Old 01/09/12, 01:01 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern California
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Otter ITA.
And I would think an injured kid woould lead to stiff legal penalties/jail time for negligence. For that alone I would think trappers on public land would be more careful.

I'ge lost a dog in a violent way and doubt I will forget that sight. Fish, take care of yourself too, okay?

Farmrj, if you oppose, then I suggest a counter petition rather than attempting to increase the pain of another.
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  #29  
Old 01/09/12, 08:09 PM
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter View Post
Or you can go on callously blaming others and destroy any sympathy that anyone might have for trappers. Yes, I'm sure that will work to save your right to trap. You should keep doing that.

OR you can say enough with the foolish laws and making MORE of them and start advocating education instead.

If there is a better way to do it, then present it to the state trapping association so that they can get the word out to their members.

Just what we need. MORE game laws that make an already complicated situation MORE complicated.

Seems to be contrary to the very premise that people are here.

The supposed frustration of having TOO MUCH government in our lives.
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  #30  
Old 01/09/12, 09:56 PM
 
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Location: northcentral MN
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Tell me how you would educate a bird hunter? I'd like to know how you would educate him to keep his dog out of a killer trap hidden in the brush and baited with grouse?
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  #31  
Old 01/09/12, 11:44 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerj View Post
OR you can say enough with the foolish laws and making MORE of them and start advocating education instead.

If there is a better way to do it, then present it to the state trapping association so that they can get the word out to their members.

Just what we need. MORE game laws that make an already complicated situation MORE complicated.

Seems to be contrary to the very premise that people are here.

The supposed frustration of having TOO MUCH government in our lives.
most laws come about because a small percentage of people are too selfish, irresponsible or just plain stupid to do the right thing to NOT harm or infringe on the rights of other people.
your standard of "control" would ban ALL use of dogs to hunt, INCLUDING retrievers picking up ducks.
i respect your right to trap & have done a bit myself. I have & will continue to argue the value of it to deer shooters & petaphiles. I will fight & vote to keep trapping as a viable tool for wildlife management.
HOWEVER your right to trap does NOT trump my right to take a dog to the woods to chase a rabbit, coon, cat, fox, coyote, deer (where legal), hog or bear.
if your connibear is 5 ft off the ground the chances of one of these dogs getting killed is next to zero. how much does it reduce your catch by 10%, 30%, 50%? DO YOU EVEN KNOW? how much does it increase your man hours in the woods? DO YOU KNOW? you can offset that by putting out more steel, learning to make a better foothold set, finding a better call lure to draw your critter up the pole & into the set or ALL OF THE ABOVE.
YOUR unwillingness to ACCEPT MY RIGHTS (very much like most deer shooters i've met) is what is putting trapping at risk PERIOD.
trappers can either allies w/ doggers or they can be enemies. if they're allies their combined numbers can help protect both activities. if they're enemies they'll both go down eventually in the face of an increasingly urban electorate. but trapping will likely go first & they'll both go much faster.
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  #32  
Old 01/10/12, 12:31 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Maybe trappers should be educated to put their traps in ways that are unlikely to catch dogs. Then we wouldn't need a law.

100 yards is not far. Dogs stay under verbal command farther than that unless there's a bad wind. My arena fence is double 100' and I have no problems telling my akita what to do while I'm riding at the other end. The dog park yard is probably 250-300' and we still have no trouble. If she were quietly laying in the corner though and somehow died instantly it might take me 30mins or more to walk the entire fence line to find her and that's not a wooded area. Many more dogs stay under command by whistle or shock collar (I've relied on just the beeper on a 100 yard range collar) when hunting at 200-300'. I've also seen falconers employ dogs with gps on dog and falcon to hunt and cover a quarter mile with the ability to call the animal back still. Far too rich of technology for my blood there but interesting stories.

Then there are dogs being reported as dead much closer to their owners and within seconds. Is a bird dog to be taught not to check out a bird smell in a trap that is probably disguised? You are concentrating on this one incident in this one thread that has minimal chance of proving negligence when so far many more cases that you can't prove the dog was not under visual and verbal control have been brought up. All so a trapper doesn't have to expend a little more effort. Not even to keep them from trapping but a little responsibility and care. Where is the trappers education, responsibility, lack of negligence...? I would think rule 1 of setting a lethal trap would be to make sure it is a safe location to trap, every precaution to prevent harm to nontarget species has been taken, and then take responsibility for what happens with your trap. That is my rule when I have to resort to rodent poison or pull out a gun and when we had people trapping raccoons nearby they would inform us every night they were putting out traps or sitting with guns so we could collect all the animals up close.

Despite all that even if someone else does not take responsibility for their actions when they are wrong you still take responsibility for yours.
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  #33  
Old 01/10/12, 11:04 AM
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What makes a lot of these traps even more dangerous is the placement. They are placed along rural roads,entrances to wma, boat landings, logging roads, etc the places numerous people hunt and recreate. The closer to the road a trap is, the easier to check, especially if you don't have to get out of your vehicle. That is the way the majority of its done here on the "range", too lazy to get 30 feet of the road. The DNR does not keep valid records of dogs being trapped because they are not required too. I am not sure if the puppy killed in Albert Lea is the same puppy I read about previously, but someone placed a 220 conibear in a culvert. The owners walked out to the end of their drive way and the puppy was killed in front of them.

Last edited by JasoninMN; 01/10/12 at 11:08 AM.
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  #34  
Old 01/14/12, 03:24 PM
 
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I got some info from Jason.Abraham@state.mn.us but it didn't specify the size of the killer trap or if was an illegal size or if the trapper complied with the written permission they needed to set a killer trap larger than 6 1/2"

We are gaining steam and I've asked everyone especially responsible trappers to send an email to Jason.Abraham@state.mn.us saying they support changing the regs to require body grips to be set over 5' or underwater. I'm also asking that they copy their legislators and Governor Dayton.

Here's the latest article in our newspaper.

http://brainerddispatch.com/outdoors...-be-better-way
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  #35  
Old 01/19/12, 07:33 AM
 
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A film crew from a WCCO is supposed to drive up and film me showing how body grip traps are set today. Hopefully the bitter cold won't stop them. It's -17 this morning and it's supposed to be windy.

If everything falls into place it might be on the 10 pm news.
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  #36  
Old 01/19/12, 08:22 AM
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Good luck to you, fishhead. It really annoys me that ONE PERSON can ruin the outdoors for everyone else. Not only that, but that someone would choose to do so simply because the law allows him to, never mind the unnecessary risk posed to pets AND people. Some people's sense of morality is ONLY dictated by law, and it's too bad that it will take a change in laws to make it fair for everyone else.

Outside of hunting season, who wants to be on the lookout for booby-trapped danger, not only for hunting dogs but kids and others who would like to explore the outdoors without threat of bodily harm? It doesn't matter that no one is purposefully targeting dogs. What matters is these traps are dangerous and a threat that shouldn't exist for the vast majority of us. The fact that someone can make a little money on a pelt pails in comparison to public safety.
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  #37  
Old 01/19/12, 08:41 AM
 
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dogs are hit by cars on a regular basis as well.

We should start a petition to outlaw cars then too.
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  #38  
Old 01/19/12, 09:59 AM
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I think it's great that you are only looking to make it safer, and not trying to ban the traps use all together. Everyone deserves equal opportunity to use public lands safely.

There are laws protecting a trappers traps; one would hope they would give you the same service and set their traps proactively, in a way to protect others property and companions. Especially if they want to preserve their use of public lands.
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  #39  
Old 01/19/12, 11:54 AM
 
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Location: northcentral MN
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I spoke with a man who lost a 100 lb lab a couple of years ago in a legally set body grip trap. He said that he had to watch his dog thrash around until it died. It still haunts him.

Yes, we are only interested in getting trappers to change the way they set these dangerous traps. 25 other states have more restrictions on them than MN and at least 18 ban the use of the ones used in MN on the ground completely. Many trappers don't set them on the ground and realize how it hurts trapping whenever another trapper kills a dog. Hunting or walking your dog should not be like playing roulette with your dogs life. Especially when trappers have dog safe and very effective alternatives.

So far the petition has over 600 signatures.
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  #40  
Old 01/19/12, 04:10 PM
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Hi Farmerj.
I couldn't help but notice how you ignored lots of questions directly posed and related to the subject matter at hand.
Would you mind explaining how going off on a totally irrelevant tangent that targets completely different circumstances is supposed to help educate me about keeping the dogs that I have a legal right to have off-leash in the woods safe from unmarked 220 traps on the ground?
I'd appreciate that.
Thanks.
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