The flying trot
 

I was reading a book called The dog in Action
and came across something interesting, about why the show GSD has a weird rear and slopping topline.
It is too long of me to type out so
here is a link to the book. hopefully you can read it on page 48-49

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Action-Loc...der_1929242069

Yeah, nothing like breeding a dog to look pretty trotting around in a circle, to the detriment of temperament and working ability. :grump:

I am not saying it is right. just as to why they breed for that rear and topline. according to some horse people the trot is an enderince gait. and the flying trot (like in standerdbreds) has the most rear push for speed.
Thus I guess they think more push/speed, better herding?

Yes, that's basically the reason the American show-bred GSD looks the way it does.

But by breeding for a lovely "flying trot", they forgot that a dog also has to stand, walk, and run like a normal dog. Go to an AKC show near the GSD ring, and you'll see the dogs practically squatting when they stand and doing this bizarre wobbling slink when they walk. They look like they're broken down and it breaks my heart.

Oh yes I know. that is why I have been asking for years as to WHY they are breeding it to look that way. and only answer I got was "for the flying trot".
The books explains WHY the topline and rear has to be that way for the flying trot to function with out crab running.

Yes, the sidegait is so important to the AKC show breeders. I wish they would put as much emphasis on soundness, temperament and working ability. That said, I've known some AKC GSDs that were very nice animals, and I felt sorry for them... trapped in that mutant form. I've known just as many that were shy, nervous, and fearful. It's a travesty what the AKC has done to such a noble breed.

I could go on and on... but I'll stop now. :)

I wouldn't put it all on AKC. It is HOW people (breeders and Judges) interpret the standards and the standards are written by the parent club not AKC.
yes side gait is important to any show breeder. even in my toy breeds reach and drive is something we strive for. though in balance.

I just always wondered the why on the GSD. now I know the why.

As a former breeder and exhibitor of GSD's I feel a bit of a need to chime in here...LOL. I was showing dogs beginning in the late 80's and on through the early 2000's. When I first got involved in showing and breeding the what is called by GSD breeders "extreme topline" or as I call it "Motor boat" style of dog was in full swing. About 2 years prior to me entering a dog in a show ring there was a dog by the name of Sequils Senator V Merivern that went Grand victor (Best of Breed) at the national specialty and he was definately a motorboat. Unfortunately the dog that goes GV and GVX (Grand Victrix) tends to set the "trend" for what is desirable in the show ring, especially the specialty show ring, for a few years or longer. Senator was from the east coast, PN if I remember correctly, and as a result many began to breed for that extreme topline, most especially on the east coast, which is where all the "imortant" breeders are.

One thing I did notice right away was that the extremeness seemed to be region specific. Dogs from the east coast, and also west coast dogs, not quite to the same extent, seemed to be longer bodied and have a more extreme topline then those dogs that were bred and were winning in the show rings from the mid west. Additionally dogs that were winning in the specialty rings were more inclined to extreme toplines then those who were shoing in the All Breed rings. In fact it almost got to the point that the specialty dogs were almost a totally different breed. you couldnt take a top winning specialty dog into an allbreed ring and expect to even place much less win. Case in point, Manhattan, the only GSD to go best of breed at Westminster, could not ever go select at the national specialty.

I am a huge proponent of movement, nothing is more beautiful then a GSD in full flying trot. Yet none of my dogs, even though they posessed a beautiful single tracking, flying trot, were ever so extreme in the rear that they were motorboats. During that time handlers took to holding up the front end (thus shortening stride in front) to give the appearence of that extreme rear, until judges began to insist on loose leads while gating, which was only sometimes adhered to and they would still put up those dogs that they kept the tight lead on to hold up the front end even though they insisted on a loose lead that they never saw in their winning dog. I wont say that my dogs didnt have some topline, they did, just not the locked stifel, toe dragging, look like they will flip over their back end topline that was popular in the late 80's and arly 90's.

Somewhere in the mid to late 90's the parent club saw a few things happening. One was that these dogs dogs that had been in vogue could no more actually do the job they were bred for then the man in the moon. The instated another title that became very important for breeders to get, very in vogue as it were. That being the Select Excellent title. It went beyond being just "Select" by insisting that the dog carry at least one working title, usually an obedience title, although the herding certification and titles also became popular after a time. These dogs also had to carry an OFA certification, something that was extremely difficult to obtain for awhile there, especially in those very "extreme" dogs.

Secondly, judges and breeders began to notice that they were loosing secondary sex characteristics in the males. Breeders were paying so much attention to getting movement, and males never moved as well as the bitches, that the males started to LOOK like bitches. Lighter boned, lighter body style, thinner more refined heads and so forth. for a while there it became hard to find amale that actually looked like a male. Judges began penalizing males for their bitchy look, although there were a few that still won on occasion.

Last thing that they noticed was that while these dogs were beautiful movers, some were beautiful befcause they were doing their level best to get away from their handler out of fear, they had soft tempraments. They had what they called the loose lead temprament test in the show rings since before I started showing but the term "loose lead" was open to much intrepretation. Id see dogs that you couldnt catch with a butterfly net much less touch them, and others that would lean against the handlers when the judge came up to check teeth and go over the dog. Judges became more insistant that the dog stand on his/her own on a loose lead and let the judge purposefully walk up to them without the dog reacting or running away. It actually got to the point at one point that breeders were complaining that the GSD was loosing the "not open to indiscriminate friendships" portion of the required temprament of the GSD, and were becomming more like golden retrievers. Also instated, again for the ability to hold the title of Select Excellent, was temprament testing and holding a temprament certified title. These tests included firing a pistol close to the dog, opening an umbrella in its face basically, going up to and touching a can filled with pennies being shaken, walking over a tarp on the ground and metal grating, accepting attention from a stranger, and standing between the owner and an aggressive stranger. Dogs that failed to to just one of these things, or were too aggressive on the aggressive stranger test, were not given the temprament certification. BTW all of my dogs were Temprament certified, with the exception of one absolutely beautiful male I had that once I discovered the soft temprament I neutered and placed.

Most recently, id say since the late 2000's and into current day, it has become in vogue to introduce imported German lines into American lines. German dogs during the time I was showing were really frowned upon, and actually made fun of. They were heavier, blockier, tended to have more restriction in their fronts so they didnt gate with their front pays extending beyond their noses (called extension) and less extreme.

I recall one judge at the national, his name escapes me now, that was judging dogs and was partial to the German dogs who when it came to winners dog actually walked over to the judges table grabbed a hard hat out of a paper bag and put it on, then turned around and then pointed at his winners dog, a German bred dog, over a beautifully moving Am bred dog named American Express. American Express "Pete" so obviously outmoved this German dog that his handler would have to let the German dog get almost half way around the ring before he started gating "Pete" around the ring and by the time they reached the final side of the ring he had to hold Pete back to keep him from passing the German dog, yet the judge gave Winners dog to the German dog. There was stunned silence, followed by boos that day. I do believe that the judge was tryingto make a point. It failed however as the winners dog did not even make the first cut in the BOB ring.

From what I have seen today, and admittidly I have not really been keeping up with the show results over the last 5 years, show dogs are leaning more toward the balanced end, with a few exceptions. In the last 4 or 5 years that I showed dogs, dogs that were less extreme, with more balanced and flowing gates were winning, and now with the popularity of introducing German imports I can only assume that they have become even less extreme as most German dogs are decidedly less extreme. Also the specialty show dog and the all breed show dog have come closer to looking and moving the same. Once AM/CAN Sel EX CH Altanas Mystique started winning in the all breed ring after having gone select, and having numerous wins in the specialty ring, specialty dogs really came closer to what the allbreed dogs looked like. Interestingly enough, Mystiques full sister AM GVX Altanas Kricket went Grand Victrix the same year Mystique went select (if I remember correctly) and in my opinion Mystique was the better dog, although both were exceptional.

Anyway, sorry for the length of this, but I felt the need to give at least some history of the evolution of the extreme topline. There are still dogs out there that are extreme, dont get me wrong, but for Id say the last 6 or 7 of the years that I showed GSD's (and I have been out of it now for about 6 years) the trend went from super extreme "motor boats" to much more balanced and flowing dogs with the parent club adding emphisis on the dog returning to the working dog it is supposed to be. :bow:

I am glad you posted.
About 7 years ago I saw Moses out with a GSD that wobbled when it stood. I was so shocked that it would be in the group ring, that I started to ask WHY?
I am glad to hear that the parent club is trying to get a hold on it, since we as dog breeders/owners don't need all the AR flack that can come from it all.

Well as the saying goes, Moses could take a goat into the GSD ring and go BOB. As sad as that is, it is not far from the truth.

Oh I hear yeah! I think all breeds have their own "Moses"
Again I will say I am so glad you posted.

Cynecagsd, I am glad you posted as well! It's good to hear from someone involved with the AKC GSD scene. It sounds to me like you were one of the breeders that had some common sense not to take it to extremes, to temperament certify your dogs, etc. Thank you for the history lesson. :)

Since I live on the West Coast, I have seen the more extreme end of things.

I remember when I was first looking for my first GSD about 15 years ago, I contacted Windswept Kennels as they were in the same town as me. I asked if any of their dogs were suitable for obedience or Schutzhund work, and she said "Oh, no. Our dogs are bred for show qualities only." :shrug:

I completely agree with you. The European GSD don't have as pronounced a slope, but are better working dogs. It's gotten worse now, but 10yrs ago there was no comparison with a European dog vs and American GSD. I think they have begun to fall into the same habit though of worrying about looks too much, but not as bad as the US.

are you talking about German ones?
if so I have seen some very roached back ones.

Some of the German show dogs have roached backs, which is weird looking, and also not to standard IMO. But from what I understand, a roach back isn't detrimental to the dog or its physical ability. I could be wrong, but that's what I was told.

You won't see a roach back on the German working-line dogs. There's a definite split in Europe between working lines and show lines, even though the show lines must pass a working trial before breeding.

see you learn new things everyday.

One of the things that amazed me about Duke, his topline was pretty straight. I had never been interested in GSD before due to the "deformity" of the back and spine, and the all too real potential for spinal and hip injuries. Duke was Austrian bred, for the fighting stuff, and he looks like a normal dog, just as gorgeous and HUGE as he can be. I will NEVER get an American bred GSD dog (meaning from American lines), but since for me it is only for pets, it ins't that big of a deal to me if the dog looks comfortable when it walks.

I don't want to think of what WE have done to dogs in our quests for "the perfect" dog...we have bred dogs predisposed to deafness, to blindness, for goodness sake a bulldog (so sweet looking tho) is a GENETIC MUTATION!~ Look at the wrinke dogs with skin and eye predispositions...dobies who go INSANE when their brain outgrows that tiny "perfect" skull they are bred for...::(:. And that is just a start. My own beloved chow breed is prone to ingrown eyelashes because of the sought after squinty eyes...wonder how many "mean chow" bites are due to being partially blind???

We have done nothing. some breeders have.
sorry to sound harsh but it is a very sensitive subject to true breeders (not the just reproducer but real breeders) of our chosen breed/breeds.

Any dog with white on it can be considered predisposed to deafness. So there goes most breeds.
I would like to see some proof of dobs brains getting to big for the skull. since I do have a whippet and though the the breeds are only distantly related he has a narrow skull too.
most wrinkled dogs only need tacking when they are pups and will grow into their wrinkles

or maybe because their historical job was to guard the emperor with a "bite now ask later" task.

editing to add the wonderfully educational link
http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm

I actually mean no offense to breeders in general. Just commenting on how some breeds are IMPERFECTED in the quest for perfection. Never meant to dog on good quality breeders.

Also ETA: I went on to research the whole doberman brain thing, and it is a myth. I spent 44 years of my life believing this is why some dobies develop temperment issues. I was wrong. :shrug:

I am sorry. I was just having grumpy day.
please forgive me.
I do agree some breeds are way over extreme.
I blame the Judges more than any.
As a breeder if you don't show then you are a PM or BYB and if you do and don't win because your dogs aren't extreme... well, then you are a loser. and if you do win then you are trying to destroy the breed......
If the judge would just stop rewarding the extremes........

I understand your frustration. It's one of the reasons I decided not to ever breed. When I was younger, I thought I wanted to be a dog breeder... until I realized how fraught it all is. So I gotta hand it to the stewards of the breed, who truly care about more than winning, and are gutsy enough to stand up to the AR garbage.

The breeder I got my GSD pup from is someone I deeply respect; her dogs have alphabet soup after their names, are healthy, sound, and long-lived, plus they actually live in the house with her, unlike some working-bred dogs. So she breeds not only for conformation, health, and working ability, she breeds for a STABLE temperament that can be a family companion as well. Her dogs do Search & Rescue, Police work, Assistance, and other jobs in the real world as well as Schutzhund, Agility, and AKC Obedience.

She doesn't show in the AKC conformation ring, but does do the German-style conformation shows here in the US, which include a "courage test" as part of the conformation title. You won't see sickle-hocks, sloping toplines, or roach backs on her dogs. They look like the old-style GSD, which is how they all *should* look IMO.

So while I'm opposed to BYBs and PMs, I'm not opposed to breeding per se. I just expect breeders to be doing it for the right reasons... and producing extreme mutants for the show ring is not one of them. I won't disparage a breeder who chooses not to participate in a system that encourages detrimental extremes.

I call them hock walkers. They stand around outside of the ring like kangaroos standing on their shaking hocks.

One of the prettiest dogs I groom is a gorgeous Shepherd from a show kennel. I worked on her a few weeks ago and noticed she put on some weight over the winter. She was standing on her hocks in the tub, as they shook under the weight. Those few added winter pounds were enough to have a bad impact on her rear end...and i wouldnt consider her fat by any means.

I lost another Shepherd client last fall because he can no longer stand on his rear and had to lay down during the entire gooming process. It's sad to see a perfectly healthy and alert dog go down permanently because it's rear end gives out. The owners were concerned because they were being faced with carrying this 80+ male out in the snow all winter to go potty.

I often wonder how mobile most of these dogs are by age 7 or so.

Unfortunately most of the Shepherds I work on I would consider high strung nerve bags. IMO if they are going to continue to breed these temperaments, they should not be placing them in pet homes. They need to be on a farm where they have room to run or work.

tailwagging, I have the same frustration in the horse world, though I don't breed. But to breed gigantic muscular QH breeds with tiny little feet, and then wonder why they get navicular and a whole host of other problems...soring Walkers so they hold up their tails or step high :(.

Or better yet, they could choose NOT to breed those temperaments. Most GSD's I see in my grooming shop are high strung and nervous, products of their unfortunate breeding.

Everywhere I go, I get comments on how calm and well-behaved my German working-line GSDs are. Especially at the vet; they are so used to seeing nutty GSDs that they're amazed to see one with a stable temperament. It's a sad state of affairs when a well-adjusted GSD is considered out of the norm.

You hit the nail on the head, kinda. The question is who is the steward of our breed, the breeder or the judge? It is sort of like the chicken and the egg question... which came first?

There is the argument that if judges would stop rewarding those dogs with with extreme toplines, ignoring the fact that the extreme topline is achieved via a weak rear, breeders would stop breeding dogs with extreme toplines and weak rears. Iveseen way too many judges that equate a dropped rear with rear drive.. big difference.

Conversly, if breeders would breed nothng but correct rears that are not weak and dogs that do not walk or stand on their hocks then the judge would have nothing to choose from but dogs with correct rears and standing on their feet.

So... who is to blame? Well both are. If judges would ignore the dogs with weak rears and put up dogs that had strong correct rears, sure breeders would adapt and show dogs with correct rears if they expected to win. Breeders on the other hand have the responisbility to produce sound dogs and to present sound dogs to the judges to judge. What is a judge to do when presented with class after class of dogs that to one extent or another have weak rears? Dismiss every dog in every class? That judge would find himself not judging and while he/she would be trying to make a statement and improve the breed, which is partially their job, they cant do it if they arent judging because no dog club will hire them. So in reality its a catch 22.

While I think judges are greatly to blame for the development and the entrenchment of weak rears, weak ears, soft tempraments and most other conformation malidies, it is not with them I lay total blame. Breeders are the stewards of the breed. They have the responsibility to produce sound puppies, both in mind and in body, and present the soundest most correct dogs into the show ring. Again if breeders were not willing to present unsound dogs to judges, judges would have no choice but to reward sound dogs.

The other people I blame for the distruction of some breeds is Hollywood. Think about it. 101 Dalmations came out and there was a rash of people wanting Dals, and PM's, BYB's, and some "breeders" cashed in on the popularity with little reguard to what they were producing. Same happend to Rott's when Omen came out. GSD's when K9 came out, mastiffs with Turner and Hooch, and lets not forget what Lassie did to the collie. Even the JRT hasnt been immune to the "hollywood factor" with Frazier's little dog.

you see there is plenty of blame to go around. I was one of those who spent a great deal of time and money showing placing dogs and also rans because I refused to conform to the current style. The excuses were interesting. One time I was told by the judge that my dog had a soft back..... oh really? Then why was BOB dog one whose back looked like a wet noodle as he went around the ring? For the record, my dog had probably the most solid back shown that day. Con wasnt the most flashy mover, nor the most animated, and he certainly didnt overdrive in the rear, or lift in the front. He was a solid balanced mover with plenty of reach and drive, and a temprament to die for. He finished last in his class that day. Go Figure.

Thank you, again, for sticking to your guns and having the strength of character not to cave in for the sake of winning. I dearly wish more AKC show breeders were like you!!

Stories like this make me want to show my German dogs in AKC conformation, just to make a point. Of course they would come in last. But at least people could see that we do have a choice.

This is Conn

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2310/conn2zv2.jpg

and Rhett

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/i...ef4dbec9/l.jpg

Oh my gosh, Rhett is beautiful! He doesn't even look like an AKC show dog (that's a compliment coming from me). I love sables. :)

A true flying trot

http://tripphill.com/images/beauboo.jpg

This is a true flying trot. Note the extension in the front as well as the rear, including the hocks. I know this dog personally and can attest that she does not hock walk and can gate all day long and into the night and never tire. She is amazing to watch in motion and you better be fast on the other end of the lead because when she shifts into overdrive she can fly! She doesnt do it by taking more steps, she simply extends her stride. In fact she'd take abut 4 steps and then you could just see her shift into overdrive. her entire body dropped about 2 inches and she just floated. Beautiful bitch standing and in motion and solid temprament. The only fault I ever had with her (she was not my dog but she is a friend of mines dog) is that she drops off over the croup a bit more steeply then is my taste, but other then that she is awesome. Trust me I'd take her home in a heartbeat.

Her name is CH Schniderhof's Illegal Motion

With ARs doing everything they can to put us all under, I think a judge that withheld the ribbons may in fact get more showing under him from breeders of other breeds, to also make a statement.
I am not sure if the GSD expeditor/parent club know the extent of dislike and worry their breeding and showing these extremes causes exhibitors of other breeds.

I'm in love with Rhett!!!! He's gorgeous, obviously male, looks extremely fit, and doesn't look like he's half sitting- all what I picture when I think of a male GSD. Don't get me wrong, Conn is really pretty but Rhett looks like a dog who was bred to work and could do it all day long. He is very very very close to my ideal GSD male- only saying it like that since I can't tell temperament/drive/etc in a pic.

Rhett was neutered and placed at a 1 and a half yr old. Never the smartest dog, in fact we used to equate him with the blonde bombshell cheerleader type. Sorta a Jessica Simpson mentality. At a year old, with lots and lots of socilization and for no reason we could ever figure out he totally lost what little mind he had. We worked with him, even sent him to a trainer that specialized in behavior and temprament all to no avail. I placed him with an older lady who lived alone out in the country and he is her constant companion and very happy, even though a stranger cant get close to him. He was the one I talked about having placed due to a temprament problem. I also never bred his mother again, although his father is a very highly used stud dog, not owned by me.

Drop dead gorgous dog. Sure hated to see his temprament fall apart like it did, and we never knew the reason why as he was outgoing and friendly up until he basially hit puberty. Happens sometimes and usually can get through it but with him it just got worse and worse. His mother was a strong alpha bitch who wasnt keen on strangers but never afraid of them, just didnt trust imeadiately and had to be introduced to new people and told that they were ok. Sire a sel excelent temprament certified dog. Again not sure what happened with him.

BTW the handler in that picture is my son.

I'm so sorry to hear that, why is it always the drop dead gorgeous ones?? GSDs do sometimes go through a personality change when they hit puberty. I once had a German bitch pup of fantastic breeding, she was beautiful, intelligent, confident, extremely focused and biddable as a young pup, and happened to be the dominant pup in the litter.

At around 4-5 months of age she started acting goofy... suddenly afraid of things she'd never been afraid of, would balk and take off the other direction if there was a hat on the ground, once she knocked me clean over because a jogger was going by and she slammed into my knees trying to get away. This was a dog we took everywhere we could, and we had socialized her heavily; we took puppy kindergarten classes, puppy agility, went to dog shows, took her downtown. We continued socializing heavily to help her get over what I figured to be a phase, but she only got worse.

At ten months we x-rayed her hips and she was found to have severe dysplasia. I don't know if pain was causing her sudden temperament change; I did notice that when we went on walks, she would start out confident and happy and get more and more weird the longer she walked, whether we were close to home or not... probably, the more she walked, the more pain she was in. It had never occurred to me, but I realized that whenever I picked up a back leg, she would yip.

We ended up putting her down and it broke my heart. We could not afford the hip replacement surgery and I could not bear to see her in pain. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do, put down a young pup for something like that... but I knew it would only get worse. I still beat myself up over whether I did the right thing.

Dont know what happened to him. I thought of that, x-rayed him from stem to tern, nothing out of the ordinary. However I did find something out later from the person who sold my bitches mother to the breeder. The granddam was flighty as all get out. The orig owner said he told her not to breed the bitch as there was a temprament problem. Never showed in my bitch and I was not told about it until I talked to the orig owner.

When I went back to the breeder of my bitch she had sold the dam and was working in totally german lines now. I kept my bitch for a bit, spayed and placed her and she has been just fine out where she is too, never has shown any temprament problem, unless you consider her not being slob dog friendly, and more stand offish to strangers until properly introduced a temprament problem.

The dam's temperament sounded exactly like what is required by the AKC standard- aloof to strangers- not vicious but also not overtly friendly. I'm having a heck of a time finding a wgsd with the proper temperament.

Too Bad about Rhett!!!

All of my GSDs have been overtly friendly with strangers. Even the one with bad hips that we had to put down; she acted flighty and weird, but once introduced to a stranger she was very friendly.

My GSD Luka will bark and carry on when strangers approach the property, but once inside, she will go grab her ball and push it at the person until they throw it. :rolleyes:

Luka sounds great!! Exactly what I like to see in a well trained/socialized GSD (provided she's not actively lunging through fences trying to get the strangers before you give her the all clear sign). I'm not in love with the idea that GSD's should act like Lab's. Being friendly after given an all clear is completely different than running up to everyone and anyone for attention.

Yeah, she doesn't lunge or act vicious or anything, just sounds the alarm. We have a sign on the fence saying "Dogs in Yard - Do Not Enter" and combined with a barking GSD it deters most people. But there is always the odd idiot that thinks they have a "way with dogs" and that signs don't apply to them. Luka won't bite anyone, thankfully. The propane guy comes into our yard all the time and she just follows him around with her ball. But I worry about what would happen if a burglar or rapist tried to enter my property--would my dog actually do something to protect me, or would she be throwing her ball at them? I hope I never have to find out.

She would probably rip said intruder a new one, without heasitation. One thing I have earned about GSD's, and really dogs in general, is that they are great judges of character.

Conn, my frist real show dog, was super friendly to people, exceedingly well socialized, climb in a strangers lap once introduced. One night, in the middle of the night we were awoken by Conn in full serious bark hitting the back door of our home. Hubby grabbed a baseball bat and headed to the back door. Intruder was LONG gone, but there is no doubt in my mind that had he entered the house, we would have found pieces of him all over the place.