Red Cell for anemic goat ? How much How often?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by jBlaze, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    I have 2 goats with bottle jaw. I bought some Red Cell, but am not sure how to use it. How much do I give and How often?

    THese two came with 4 others. I have a pen of about 20 goats together, and only these two have bottle jaw. These are boer. The others are some boers and some lamanchas and some pygoras. I wormed them all with Safeguard in May and with Eprinex (ivomec product) poured on in June. (we were treating for lice.)

    When I noticed the swelling on the jaw on Thursday I gave them Safeguard again, (the oral for goats stuff - higher dose than bottle, as always - I think it is weak stuff.) I also gave then Normectrin IM at a almost twice the cattle dose.
    They are acting fine, but eyelids are VERY pale. I am wanting to help them, but not sure how.

    Questions:
    How to use Red Cell for anemic goat?
    What to de-worm them all with since what we did was not enough for these two?

    Appreciate any suggstions!
    Jean.
     
  2. HappyFarmer

    HappyFarmer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,012
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    For an very anemic goat I would start with 6cc's red cell orally for 3-4 days. Then I would decrease it to 3 cc's daily & monitor the color of their eyelids. Depending on the severity of anemia will depend on the length of dosing.

    We dose safeguard (for tapes only) 3 days in a row, orally, at double the cattle dose, once a year.

    Ivermec we give 1cc/25#'s as needed, orally. Ivermec is still effective in the NorthEast. Repeat in 10 days. Your locale may may indicate you might have to switch wormers, I'll let others comment onthat.
    HF
     

  3. Jyllie63

    Jyllie63 Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    2,148
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio
    Here is what I did when my doe had bottlejaw(it worked!). I gave 15cc the first day and then 5cc the next day and then 5cc every other day. I also used Ivermectin Plus because it took care of liverflukes. Good Luck!
     
  4. Cannon_Farms

    Cannon_Farms Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    4,639
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Location:
    Monroe Ga
    Word of caution that my vet gave me about red cell. It can be a great product but there are some things in there that can be toxic in large doses.
    Can anyone give a dose on the injectable iron? you can buy it at your feed store, or at least tsc's I never had to give it but imagine it might be more direct and effective.
     
  5. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

    Messages:
    30,606
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
    Don't forget that Ivomec and Ivomec Plus are given orally, not by injection, even though it's the injectable formula.
     
  6. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    Since I gave them the Ivomec plus to them as an injection, when can I give it to them orally?
     
  7. betsy h.

    betsy h. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    806
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Location:
    Cosby, TN
    1 ml Iron Dextran injectable, 1ml Multi-Min, a whopper dose of B-Complex (10ml), plus a triple dose of wormers- injectable Cydectin, Valbazen and Pyrantel Pamoate.

    This combination works very well in case of bottle jaw. Some areas of the country require THREE wormers from different families to be really effective against worms these days.

    Red Cell is very good nutritional support, but the injectable iron gets in there and helps make red blood cells, which Red Cell does not.
     
  8. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    They are looking better, but I am still wondering when I can dose them with the ivomec again.
    Thanks!
     
  9. betsy h.

    betsy h. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    806
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Location:
    Cosby, TN
    *PLEASE!* Consider adding at least one different family of wormer to the treatment just now. So many people, and indeed vets- because they are not goat vets, do not understand the need to use at least two different families if anthelmentics due to resistance and the inability to get all the different types of worms with one singular family of wormers- we've been hearing the word for several years to use different families in one treatment- an avermectin (Ivomec, Cydectin), a benmezadole (Valbazen, Synanthic), and either the Pyrantel or Levamasole.

    There may be a fatal relapse if only a singular family of wormer is used in a serious case. This would happen at about 10-14 days post first worming = it is called the L4 stage.
     
  10. betsy h.

    betsy h. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    806
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Location:
    Cosby, TN
    BTW> in many parts of the US, using Safegard is like pouring water on their backs- ie. It is useless.
     
  11. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    What about Cylence??

    Trying to learn here.
     
  12. betsy h.

    betsy h. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    806
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Location:
    Cosby, TN
    Cylence is for lice, not worms. It is a pour on product.

    Some folks use ear tags that are infused with an organophosphate (like Couamphos= CoRal) by taking the part of the tag with the hole in it and putting it on the goats' collar like a flea collar. It seems to work that way.
     
  13. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

    Messages:
    30,606
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    Texas Coastal Bend/S. Missouri
    I'd do the oral Ivomec after ten days, but that's just me.
     
  14. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    ~*~*~*~*~*~ U P D A T E *~*~*~*~*~ U P D A T E ~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*

    Update, The doe that had the bottle jaw is due to kid in 2 weeks. She looks good.

    I remembered posting this thread when I was answering a question about de-wormers on another board. I thought I would share that post here for an update about this doe. (I sold the younger doe.)

    About worming. There are SO many differing opinions and advice! find a vet that knows goats, and do a few fecal samples till you get a good grasp.
    I went through a good preventative on our herd, wormed everyone same day, every 3 weeks, for 9 weeks. All the wormies should have been gone. I would have to look at my records to see which types we gave how, but it should have been well covered. Within 6 weeks of doing so, we had two does develope bottle jaw, which is an indicator of heavy worm load. I supplemented with iron (red-cel and 2 or 3 iron injections), I gave the ivomec type injected and the safeguard at the same time. Then a week later I used the ivomec orally. still battled the bottle jaw, but it was better, this went on for some time. THe doe that had it real bad was pregnant, and I hated to keep treating her, and needed to get rid of the worms.
    Here is what I did:
    My horse vet (a couple years prior) had me drench de-worm my horses, this meant giving twice the normal dose of safeguard for five days in a row. yes. (safeguard is fenbendazol, and is really a pretty weak wormer) So, that is what I did for the doe. I treated her with twice my normal goat dosage 3 times in 5 days (a busy month). She has been fine since. She has not kidded yet, but looks good, and not treating her would have been worse. Now, I normally give the safeguard at a higher rate than the bottle says anyways, and I increased that.

    I am far from an expert on goat de-worming!! I just wanted to point out that 1) there are many differing opinions and conflicting advice. 2) sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do. 3) keep in mind that there are few products that are labeled for use on goats, and the feedstores are not allowed to help you with "off-label use." The dosages listed on the labels for other species are different when used on goats, as is the application.


    I'll ty to remember to update again after she kids. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
  15. Jyllie63

    Jyllie63 Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    2,148
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm glad she is doing good! It took my doe quite awhile to recover from the bottlejaw as well, but today she seems to be healthy and happy :)
     
  16. Briza

    Briza Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    303
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Jblaze you would help the efficacy of your worm regime if you copper bolus.
    Blood suckers are more easily controlled with proper mineral intake and bolusing has helped those of us in the south with long warm seasons and wet ground with parasite problems.
    You are right about fecals. The only way to know what you are doing.
    Anemia is not fast to reverse. By the time you have pale membranes you have anemia and a lot of work back to a fully healthy animal.
    Hopefully her fetuses are normal with that chemical soup.
    B~
     
  17. Feathers-N-Fur

    Feathers-N-Fur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    I don't know where in OR you are, but I can tell you that I like near OSU and was just talking to one of their vets about my worming. I use ivomec and do fecals so I know it works on my farm. My problem, is in how fast the worm load comes back. He told me to worm twice, 14 days apart to kill any that weren't mature enough to be killed with the first dose. They (OSU vets) have been watching for resistance to ivomec but haven't seen any for sure cases YET. If you are near Corvallis, they are doing their sheep and goat clinics soon. You can get free ultrasounds, castration or dehorning. It is interesting talking to the student about what they are being taught about goats.
     
  18. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon

    YES!!!! I DO Need to Copper Suplement!!

    I tried it once, and the things I used were huge, and I need to get the smaller ones and try again! After I go try to figure out the dosages again...!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  19. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    Once you see worm burdens so out of control you have anemia, causing bottle jaw, nobodies normal management of how they worm at their farm is going to touch this. Bottle jaw is caused by anemia, which means you have blood sucking worms, which means safeguard (unless used at the same time with another wormer, cocktail) Ivermectin, etc...are worthless. Ivermectin Plus will get it if it's liver flukes, but use your Cydectin for HC. It's nearly always one of the two of these that causes bottle jaw in goats.

    Prevention, learn to fecal, it's such a cheap easy alternative to using all these chemicals in your goats...they have to process all these chemicals and herbs through their liver, your literally killing them, their production and their ability to have any kind of immunity to keep the numbers of parasites in their system (which is perfectly normal) low enough not to cause problems. Vicki
     
  20. jBlaze

    jBlaze mostly LaManchas

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Oregon
    Vicki,
    Can you please define HC?

    Thanks Dear! :)

    and I don't recall if I used the ivermectin PLUS or not.
    Can you use Cydectin on pregnant does?