bottle jaw

Discussion in 'Goats' started by rootsandwings, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have ayoung doe who was showing signs of a heavy worm load:
    weight loss, decreased milk production, loose stools, poor appetite, lessened activity

    I wormed her with ivomec injectable four days ago.

    stools firmed up, appetite increased, milk production has increased, activity level has not.

    this evening she came into the barn with classic bottle jaw. the only other time I've had bottle jaw it was the first symptom I noticed, I wormed the goat, and 12 hours later she was fine. this goat I already wormed. She does have pale eyelids however.

    I know that if you kill off too many gut worms too fast they can bleed out, but I figured that was right away - not in a few days. could she have internal bleeding? Should I give her injectable iron? How much? she weighs about 90lbs.
     
  2. Bearfootfarm

    Bearfootfarm This Space For Rent Supporter

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    It could be the Ivomec isn't doing the job.
    I'd worm her again with a different wormer ASAP.
     

  3. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    How did you administer the Ivomec, and at what dose?
     
  4. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2.5 cc subQ - I fnd it odd that it has apparently corrected everything BUT the anemia.

    has anyone used injectable iron in their goats?
     
  5. Jyllie63

    Jyllie63 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When my doe had bottlejaw I used Red Cell (horse aisle TSC) and it was orally. It was a regimen that had to be done for a couple of weeks, but the eyelids did eventually return to a nice pink...just took time.
     
  6. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    In goats, dewormers are supposed to be administered orally. Administer round two by squirting that dose into the goat's mouth.

    Did you do fecal testing before and after?

    BTW, it takes almost a month for the bone marrow to generate enough red blood cells to see an improvement in anemia.
     
  7. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Alice, do you know why the bottle jaw symptoms disappeared so quickly in my first goat then? really - she had the soft swollen under jaw (felt like milk goiter but was from chin to throat) and I wormed her (subQ with ivomec) and in 12 hours it was gone. (the eyelids did take weeks)

    Also, can someone tell me why goats are wormed orally? I was doing that, and then a friend who has had goats for several years told me she was using the ivomec injectable subQ on the advice of her vet and that it worked great and I switched because the dosage is so much easier to control and the goats don't try to spit it out and kill me. And, aside from the current case, in two years and 11 goats it seems to work here as well (I have only had this confirmed with a vet performed fecal once)

    and, I re-wormed her - orally, with safeguard for goats, but if it takes that long to regenerate red blood cells, maybe she didn't actually need it and it was just "leftover" anemia?
     
  8. cdehne

    cdehne Well-Known Member

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    I would re-worm her with moxidectin. I use quest horse wormer. 1.5cc/100lbs. You need to squirt the quest into a syringe in order to get an accurate dose. This is my wormer of choice when I purchase a new goat or if I am helping somone with a goat in trouble. You can then do follow up treatment with red cell to correct the anemia caused by the heavy worm load.

    This sounds like a goat that needs help quickly-please don't wait a week to go to town and get the quest, it may be too late.

    Chris
     
  9. cdehne

    cdehne Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to mention that quest horse wormer is a gel and is given orally. Igive all wormers here on my farm orally and have been very happy with the results.
     
  10. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    I have Dr. David Pugh's veterinary college text book, "Sheep and Goat Medicine." It says to give ALL dewormers orally.

    Edited to add:
    I found the sentence that explains it:
    "... refrain from injecting or using pour-on macrolide preparations designed for cattle in small ruminants. This practice may enhance the development of resistant strains of some internal parasites because of inappropriately low drug absorption (with pour on use) or long term subtherapeutic levels (with injection.)"

    In other words, the pour-on isn't absorbed well by goats causing a low level of the drug in the goat's system, and injecting it causes a low level of the drug in the goat's system. Both methods of treatment enable the worms to develop immunity to the dewormer. Give it at the correct dose (much higher than labeled for cattle) orally to successfully get rid of the worms and avoid contributing to the immune worm problems.

    http://www.amazon.com/Sheep-Goat-Medicine-Pugh-DVM/dp/0721690521
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  11. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    Safeguard has been over used so much that most goat worms (other than tapeworms) are immune to it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  12. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    so how long SHOULD it take for the bottle jaw to clear up?

    her poop is firm and beginning to have pellet definition. she eats a little more each day. Her feed has some iron in it. She also has free access to goat minerals - which she is currently enjoying a lot of. I get a little more milk each day, She gets up on the stand happily, She walks around the pasture and grazes, she is just less active than normal for her - and apparently very anemic.

    She has now had two wormers in less than a week and I really don't want to give her a third.
     
  13. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    oh, and I chose the safeguard because the chemical is the same (fenbensomething) as in panacure - which is what the vet suggests for ivomec resistant worms around here, and the bottle had the correct dosages listed for goats by weight - which the panacure - being for horses, did not. the %age was also the same as in the panacure horse.
     
  14. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    Most vets don't know squat about goats. Sorry.

    Most dewormers are used off label because there aren't enough goats out here for the drug companies to spend the money on testing. This was told to me by an Ivomec rep at a farm show. You really must go off label because the things labeled for goats don't work.... due to over use and resistant worms.
     
  15. Jyllie63

    Jyllie63 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It took my doe about 2 weeks to completely lose the bottlejaw and about a month to get the healthy red back into the eyelids. This was with redcell therapy.

    And Alice is right...if you want goat info listen to the folks here...not your vet!
     
  16. TheLands

    TheLands Well-Known Member

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    Hi all. I have been away from the site for a while.

    I have given my goats wormer subQ every time I have done it and it works great for me. My goats give me a really hard time with drench and it is almost impossible to get it in them that way so I tried the subQ and found it was much better and I have never had a problem with them including in the injection site.

    My six yr old got bottle jaw a couple times and it went down within 12 hours of dewormer but the anemia took quite a while. Her energy level was back up in just a day or so. I gave her a B complex injection a few hours after the Ivermec injection also....

    Just my 2 cents. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  17. rootsandwings

    rootsandwings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    thank you TheLands - at least I feel less crazy. That is the problem I have - that "low level persistence" seems like less of a risk to me than a goat who actually only swallowed
    half a dose, or maybe a third, or maybe two thirds.... I have no idea, the stupid goat is now coughing out cud to get rid of the wormer....

    I don't know if the safeguard did anything, but the swelling is less today but not gone. I don't intend to treat further for now.
     
  18. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    I just depends on if you want to help create a bigger problem with worms in the future by using the wrong method of administration or solve your current problem by using the correct method.

    If your goats are spitting out the dewormer, you need to get the drench gun tip past the 'hump' of their tongue.
     
  19. TheLands

    TheLands Well-Known Member

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    I swear I can shove the dench down some of their throats and they still spit it out. Like said above they will spit out cud to get rid of it. I have only had a big problem with one of them. The rest are fine and I did the injection. I have had several say drench and several say injection is fine. I am not sure anyone knows 100% what is the "right way" to do it. You have to do what is best for your herd. It is less trauma on them to inject so that is what I do..... With no problems.

    One of my girls had a large load (we do fecal tests) and I did the injection then a followup after two weeks. She did great. Didn't make her sick and the worm load was down to below normal after.

    The question I have I guess is if it works, it doesn't hurt the goat or make it sick, and the rest of the herd has very low counts (since they all have them normally from what I read), is it really the "wrong" way to do it?
     
  20. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    If it causes the remaining worms to develop and pass on resistance, is it the right thing to do?