June 29th Bunker Index - The Secret of Happiness

whiskeylivewire · #21 06/29/11, 05:22 PM

Ok, the nuclear plant thing in NE...how far east is that going to extend I wonder? I'm sitting in SW MO just pondering it....

kabic · #22 06/29/11, 05:36 PM

In another article I read about the greek reforms is that more than one in five Greeks are employed by the government or a state-owned enterprise.

I think that explains alot right there.

Txsteader · #23 06/29/11, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedspreader

It has nothing to do with public land being sold off... (btw, do you know who it was sold to? I do.)

George Soros?

Seriously, you've piqued my curiosity. All I know is 'private investors'. You got names?

zant · #24 06/29/11, 05:52 PM

Seedspreader has it correcto mondo-parasites don't want to leave their hosts....and they don't want to contribute to the blood they're sucking....Thats why in nature they fall off after sucking all the blood and find new hosts..but in Greece,there are no new host...

seedspreader · #25 06/29/11, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txsteader

George Soros?

Seriously, you've piqued my curiosity. All I know is 'private investors'. You got names?

Well, that was sort of a trick question... The answer is NO ONE.

They haven't sold anything yet. An article from Monday in the San Fran Gate says:

Quote:

June 28 (Bloomberg) -- Greek plans to sell state assets as part of a 78 billion-euro ($111 billion) budget retrenchment are "not a fire sale," the official in charge said.

"It's a professionally run privatization plan and we go through professional procedures of sale through tender processes," George Christodoulakis, the government's special secretary for restructuring and privatizations, said in a question-and-answer session at a conference in London today. "One can say: Is this the best time to sell assets? But this is devoted exclusively to the buyback of debt."

Greek lawmakers vote tomorrow on Prime Minister George Papandreou's five-year plan for budget cuts and asset sales, which is needed before the cash-strapped nation can tap a fifth loan payment from last year's 110 billion-euro rescue by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. Failure to pass the proposal may lead to the euro area's first sovereign default.

Greek unions shut down government services, halted public transport and disrupted flights at the start of a 48-hour strike today in protest at the plans, which include the sale of stakes in Public Power Corp. SA, the former electricity monopoly, Hellenic Telecommunications Organization SA and Opap SA, Europe's biggest publicly traded gambling company.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos told lawmakers today the asset sales comprised the "first pillar" in any new financing package for Greece. The privatizations will begin in the next couple of months once the agency responsible for them has been set up, government spokesman Elias Mossialos said in Athens.

--With assistance from Marcus Bensasson and Eleni Chrepa in Athens. Editors: Eddie Buckle, Jeffrey Donovan

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1QhnQYmYW

As noted earlier... the "public land" is actually government involvement in business ventures.

With Greece's track record on following through on their past promises and audits, I wouldn't hold my breath on anything getting sold.

time · #26 06/29/11, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kabic

In another article I read about the greek reforms is that more than one in five Greeks are employed by the government or a state-owned enterprise.

I think that explains alot right there.

Well, this should explain a bit more.

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-st...am-2010-6?op=1

Quote:

Greece's bloated public sector employs the same share of the workforce -- 14.1% -- as America's. Some US states are much worse, giving public jobs to nearly 25% of workers.

InvalidID · #27 06/29/11, 06:13 PM

See, I think you guys are all missing the boat on this one. It doesn't matter if they are socialist, communist, or capitalist. You can't run a nation on debt forever.

People are protesting austerity measures. Why shouldn't they? They're being told that Government has been out of control and failed to manage the nation, now they have to pay an enormous debt (that they don't need to take on) while taking a cut in living standards. This so the politico's can maintain power within the EU.
Would you be ok with that? If it was an option of taking a cut in lifestyle and more debt, or taking a cut in lifestyle and no new debt which would you choose?

time · #28 06/29/11, 06:31 PM

Quote:

See, I think you guys are all missing the boat on this one.

No, my comment was in regards to why the people are rioting. Not the cause of the economic trouble. I think you give the greek people too much credit.

Quote:

It doesn't matter if they are socialist, communist, or capitalist. You can't run a nation on debt forever.

This is true. Just not the reason the people are rioting.

The exact same thing is going on in the US, only on a smaller scale so far. And, the US has it's own currency.

The US will default if more money is not borrowed-the same as greece.

Cuts(austerity), both Federall, State and local are being hottly debated-same as greece.

Tax increases are being hottly debated-same as greece.

InvalidID · #29 06/29/11, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by time

No, my comment was in regards to why the people are rioting. Not the cause of the economic trouble. I think you give the greek people too much credit.

This is true. Just not the reason the people are rioting.

The exact same thing is going on in the US, only on a smaller scale so far. And, the US has it's own currency.

The US will default if more money is not borrowed-the same as greece.

Cuts(austerity), both Federall, State and local are being hottly debated-same as greece.

Tax increases are being hottly debated-same as greece.

This isn't true. We could very well service our debt without borrowing more money. The catch is the 'austerity' measures would be almost as hard as they are in Greece. Unless we decided to cut Military spending as well. Anyone ready to end the 4 wars yet?

ETA: We have several other options that Greece doesn't as well. Inflate away the debt ,which it appears is the preferred method.
Crush the Euro. This would create a massive flight to safety, namely T-Bills. Our borrowing rate would go even lower than it is now. We would simply pay off the loans we have, then borrow more at a lower rate. The debt wouldn't change, onlt the payments would get lower.

There are a few other options, but it's more complicated and kinda beyond the scope of a forum like this.

tinknal · #30 06/29/11, 06:35 PM

Ernie, have you seen the reports about bad debt in China? Looks like their bankers have been taking hints from ours.

"China’s financial system continues to be burdened by a mountain of non-performing loans (NPLs) in the state banking system, despite government promises to take action to reduce it. In its annual report on global debt released on May 3, the accounting firm Ernst & Young highlighted the dangers of China’s bad debt, estimated at a staggering $US911 billion."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/ma...chin-m18.shtml

InvalidID · #31 06/29/11, 06:50 PM

Tinkal, I've been looking into that as well. It's amazing what China has been able to pull off so far. They have in essence financed entire (empty) cities that have no people and no production.
It would seem they had based the entire economic model on ever expanding exports and cheap labor. Now that both have taken a hit, the whole Chinese model is failing.

Of course there was enough corruption over there to make the mob blush.

time · #32 06/29/11, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvalidID

There are a few other options, but it's more complicated and kinda beyond the scope of a forum like this.

And that right there is one of the major factors in why these things are not fixed and never will be. At least, not voluntarily.

InvalidID · #33 06/29/11, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by time

And that right there is one of the major factors in why these things are not fixed and never will be. At least, not voluntarily.

Because the fixes are complicated or because I don't want to write a 6 page synopsis? Cause I could write till I'm purple but it won't make things any better.

time · #34 06/29/11, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvalidID

Because the fixes are complicated or because I don't want to write a 6 page synopsis? Cause I could write till I'm purple but it won't make things any better.

Because the fixes(and causes) are complicated.

I don't believe the polititians understand current economics. There will not be a consensus fix. I don't believe the people understand the economics either, so they hope and believe the polititians do. There is not even consensus between the economists that complicated the systems.

I lean to the veiw that their is no fix, only a delay.

InvalidID · #35 06/29/11, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by time

Because the fixes(and causes) are complicated.

I don't believe the polititians understand current economics. There will not be a consensus fix. I don't believe the people understand the economics either, so they hope and believe the polititians do. There is not even consensus between the economists that complicated the systems.

I lean to the veiw that their is no fix, only a delay.

Well, this is the strength in having the Fed reserve. Letting very smart people fix very complicated problems... Of course that's also the problem of having the Fed. Very smart people create very complicated problems.

The fix, honestly, is to crush the Euro. When the Euro fails, all the satellite nations in Europe can go back to running their own economies and the flight to safety would save the US.
That would be a short term fix for us though, and likely a curse as well as a blessing. When the flight to the dollar happened we would be awash in extremely cheap money. This would of course create a new debt bubble and we'd be back here in 20 years, maybe 10. Unless we were able to live within our means of course.

Ann-NWIowa · #36 06/29/11, 10:16 PM

The biggest problem with politicians is they are more interested in getting reelected than solving problems. Our Congress people have a golden parachute, they don't have to depend on Social Security and Medicare. I think they are generally so in love with the sound of their own voices that they don't actually hear anything ... especially anything they don't want to hear.

I'm totally disgusted with the school unions thinking they are above taking a hit like the rest of us. Our local school district is bringing to vote an increase in taxes so every child can have a laptop. They are so out of touch with what life is like for the rest of the community. Its sort of like "them" against "us" and in a small community they practically out number "us".

So many here look at Greece and Argentina and think it can't happen here. Head in the sand refusing to see what's right in front of their faces. I don't pretend to know how its all going to play out but I can plainly see it, whatever it turns out to be, is in our not too distant future and its not going to be a pleasant trip.

Wintersong Farm · #37 06/29/11, 10:40 PM

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its...billions-euros

According to this article, China is the only thing propping up the Euro right now. Otherwise, it would be chunks falling from the financial sky.

InvalidID · #38 06/30/11, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersong Farm

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its...billions-euros

According to this article, China is the only thing propping up the Euro right now. Otherwise, it would be chunks falling from the financial sky.

This is true! That's why Bernankie was filling the European banks with money during the QE series. This way those banks are indebted to the US AND when Greece or any of the PIIGs fail those banks don't fall so hard.

Germany is leveraged 32:1! The Euro zone as a whole is 26:1! Meanwhile, here in the US we're leveraged at about 13:1. 32:1 is right about where Lehman was when it fell, it's unsustainable and if ANYTHING goes wrong it's unrecoverable. China stepping is IMO too little too late. It only works if everything goes PERFECTLY, which it would appear Ireland and Greece have other plans.

Ernie · #39 06/30/11, 07:13 AM

I had dinner last night with a banker from Luxembourg. The topic came around to taxes and the crisis in Greece and he went on and on. (Get a few drinks in a banker and you can't stop them.)

He was telling me that they instituted a "crisis tax" in his country in order to prop up the banks that are loaning money to Greece. His bank hasn't actually seen any of the money as it got hung up in the sticky fingers of government, but everyone he knows suspects that this won't be the last loan Greece requires to keep going and that in only a short time they'll undo the austerity agreements and go into default.

He did have some good news though. He said that the rising cost of food has inspired an entirely new gardening movement in his country and that everywhere you go people are talking about their gardens and showing off what they've accomplished. His company has even been giving people time off in the afternoons so they can go home early and work in their gardens.