Agricultural Carrying Capacity as Provided by Petroleum

Yep. Starving people will eat the seed corn!

Not only would it take time to get the iron (how much iron do we have left?!?) and forge the steel and make the plows, how many people nowadays even know how to MAKE a horse-drawn plow (let alone use it)?!? How many people know how to make harness, or yokes for oxen?!? Yes, there are a few, but not enough to make a dent in the need if our oil was cut off abruptly!

You all need to get scythes and learn how to use them, then teach as many people as you can -- all those animals will have to be fed, too, and the hay for the winter will have to be cut by hand. (I have my scythe and have been learning to use it -- cut part of my goat feed with it last year, and hope to do a lot more this year.)

There will be millions of miles more wire for fencing needed, too, when the big commercial farms have to be cut up and farmed by animal and human power. Where is all of that going to come from?

There are a lot of riding horses who could be used for light draft work (Pa of Little House on the Prairie used a pair of Mustangs, which are generally not large horses, for pulling their wagon and for farm work), but there are also a lot of riding horses (and pet horses) who aren't physically sound enough for heavy work. Plus it takes several years for a horse to grow up enough to be trained, and then worked. Figure at least four or five years from birth to actually being useful. We don't have nearly enough veterinarians or farriers, either (future job opportunities there, I think).

I think if you consider the problem for a while, you can see a whole bunch more short-falls that we'll have.

As for the person who said that our military have been 'swaggering' around the world, how many of our military do you know? I know quite a few, was an AF wife for ten years, and have family and friends in the military, and I wouldn't accuse any of them of 'swaggering.' I agree that our military ought to be at home, protecting our own borders, but I think the language that was used in that post was offensive.

Kathleen

I've been told by someone who spent a lot of time looking it up that there are more horses in North America today than at any time in the past, including when they were the only mode of transportation and worked as much land as tractors work today. I don't have the numbers to prove it but I don't have to look far to know I believe it. Difference is most of them just sit in a yard somewhere burning hay and haven't even been ridden in years.

__________________
The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

I, too, have military relatives.
By far, they are honorable people.

But they are becoming the exception.
The young warriors now are just the stock you would expect from a grossly decaying society.
I often speak a little on the extreme side to make a point.
It takes very little stimulation and even less peer pressure to drag an average young man to depravity. I have seen evidence that our troops are being taught, overtly or covertly, that those whom they oppress by their "occupation" are subhuman.
Whether a blind eye is turned to their occasional bouts of terrorism against private citizens in those countries unfortunate enough to be in the US scope, I do not know.

I do know what I see coming, and I believe the verse in the Bible that says "a curse, causeless, shall not come." That is to say, as participating citizens of the corporate US, all are guilty for the crimes of those you send around the world to "represent" you.
What goes around comes around. America dreams that she is guiltless.
The truth, and recompense, will be evident enough when the time comes.

When Chinese or Russian soldiers drag you out of your house in front of your husband and children--if they are still alive-- and have their way with you, maybe you'll remember to ask yourself "why?".

I wish the reality of life were less offensive.
Americans have purposefully been kept blind, comfortable and ignorant of the true evils that stalk this world. It is not in my nature to stand idly by and perpetuate that.

Even so, I've probably said too much.

__________________
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater.
III

Can too much be said?

I don't know, Old Man.

It grinds me when I find myself upsetting the ladies.

__________________
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater.
III

Well then I'll relate an amusing story so that everyone may recover from your unsettling revelation.

I went out to the apiary about thirty minutes ago to see if I can sneak up on a skunk that has allegedly been bothering my beehive. (Only after I was out there did the possible ramifications of sneaking up on a skunk hit home.) I did not see Mr. Stinker out there, but as I walked I noticed the ground was literally crawling in my flashlight beam. A closer inspection revealed thousands of earthworms, all poking out of the ground and wiggling about. Some lucky ones had already found a mate and were snuggling up in the throes of passion and refused to quit the field as heavy boots tromped nearby. I may have accidentally trod upon at least one pair of lovers in a careless act of coitus squishus.

I believe earthworms are hermaphrodites, which having now seen the vast mating fields I can understand. It must be hard enough to find someone else of your squishy, slimy species, much less looking for someone with compatible plumbing.

I can't help wondering though ... do you think any of them ever get confused and mate with their own tail?

Ernie! that's a great mood lifting story and question.

__________________
"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

There's a big difference between a working draft horse and the pampered pets people call horses nowadays.

__________________
"I don't want everyone to like me; I should think less of myself if some people did."
— Henry James

Forerunner - I think you're saying things that need to be said. While I'd like to believe that the majority of those serving in our armed forces are honorable, footage from Katrina where national guardsman playing Rambo illegally confiscated firearms by force and made people leave their homes (who had the means to stay in them - just like many of the folks on this board would) makes me think otherwise. A good friend, and ex-Marine, echoes what you say of the attitude taught about those whom they are to police. Further, when you think about the fact that we have military bases in over 120 countries you've got to say to yourself, "how would I feel if I lived in one of those countries?". That's imperialism folks, plain and simple. Not the vision our founding fathers had by a longshot.

Thanks, Tim. A little encouragement along the way is a rare Godsend.

Ernie, I may have to report you to the mods for posting about sex outside of Melissa's family forum.

__________________
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater.
III

Doh! I guess I shouldn't tell the tale of the lonely goat either.

Well, I hate to think what happens to a guy that brings up an idea for the world to go on, Horses or oxen may not be the answer to all but they can be a help. Hores can be worked at 2 and 3 years of age, oxen at 2 and yes there won`t be anyone but a few that can teach idiots how to use them. I never said it was the best idea, just an idea. And yes the idiots of the world will eat the seed corn, potato`s, onions and what ever. I will hire people to gaurd me with their guns, in exchange for feeding them. Granted I have my own guns but you can`t work and fend off hungry idiots. Yes farm ground that is depleted of all fertility is not going to grow much, but as some have said many will die, so you won`t have them to feed. I sure hope I`m not around to see it. It will be a sad day, but I can survive and will, as will my family, and right now thats all that matters to me. If the shtf happens, Joe blow will mean nothing to me at that point, I know that is harsh but that is just going to be the way it is. I think it will go back to more of a colony living situation at that point but hey, who the ell knows. And you can use all these pasture pets to work, and if you can`t retrain them, YOU EAT THEM. Thats enough rambling for now, I need to go build up my food stocks. Later you positive thinking people, Marc

__________________
Our Diversified Stock Portfolio: cows and calves, alpacas, horses, pigs, chickens, goats, sheep, cats ... and a couple of dogs...
http://springvalleyfarm.4mg.com

Even if true do you think you can just hook up riding horses or race horses to plows?

Easier than most people would think. My Amish neighbours buy most of their horses as worn out race horses, many of them are doing at least light tillage (harrowing, cultivating) the same year. Just because people thought 150 years ago that they NEEDED to plow a foot deep doesn't make it so.

__________________
The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

Forerunner - no problems. Hey, you have encouraged me to consider compost on a whole different scale!

There is a major problem with hiring people with guns to guard you in exchange for feeding them. What do you do when they decide it makes more sense for you to be working for them?

There may be more horses now than in the mid 1800's but not near enough to cover the vastly larger number of acres that would have to be cultivated. They also would need trained and fed for long enough to actually be useful and that will be months. Almost everybody who has horses today buys their grain and hay they won't last long enough to make any difference. Then there is the fact that you need enough land to feed yourself and the livestock and to grow enough to sell or trade. There is a reason why 40 acres was considered necessary to farm and raise a family on. Florida, parts of Texas, and parts of California could get by on a little less but get below about 25-30 inches of rain a year and that amount of acreage is going to start increasing fast.

clicked twice