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  #31  
Old 01/20/08, 09:05 AM
 
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Kmac, if you have a weeks worth I am coming to your house to help you keep from violating the law. "Ain't got no stinkin food"--where are my food stamps, gub housing, need help with my electric bil, and money for school lunchs. wc

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  #32  
Old 01/20/08, 09:34 AM
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Well after reading this thread I just want to proclaim that I have never whored in my life.


Mike

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  #33  
Old 01/20/08, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike in Ohio
Well after reading this thread I just want to proclaim that I have never whored in my life.


Mike
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  #34  
Old 01/20/08, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in Ohio
Well after reading this thread I just want to proclaim that I have never whored in my life.


Mike

I wondered about this, until I read the whole thread again.
Oh my....
Such clever people with words.

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  #35  
Old 01/20/08, 02:40 PM
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Don't the hoarding laws only pertain to store bought goods?

If you have thousands of jars of home canned food it's not hoarding.
If you have thousands of cans of store bought food it would be hoarding.

A large stock of any store bought item would be considered hoarding.

Maybe I am way off base here, but that's how I understand the hoarding laws.

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  #36  
Old 01/20/08, 02:52 PM
 
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There are executive orders that deal with hoarding and I think you find them among the ones that deal with FEMA.

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  #37  
Old 01/20/08, 03:03 PM
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I expect that any interpretation of "anti-hoarding laws" will depend on who is "enforcing" those laws. I still will continue to prep because it is really not too likely any .gov type people are going to show up here wanting to requisition my "hoarded supplies". I also won't let the neighbors see what I have, nor do I talk about prepping locally.

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  #38  
Old 01/20/08, 05:30 PM
 
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So if you have a big bunch of jackboots decending on you proclaiming that you are "hoarding" . . .it might be better for your health to not draw down on them.

Would be interesting watching those jboots confronting the Mormon folks about their full pantrys

yup . .a good time tobe . . quiet.......

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  #39  
Old 01/20/08, 09:21 PM
A.T. Hagan
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The hoarding laws pertain to whatever the man with the gun says they pertain to. He may or may not have a badge or a military rank. It really doesn't matter.

It has been this way since the beginning of time and likely always will be.

.....Alan.

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  #40  
Old 01/20/08, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck-prime
Talked to an aquaintance I haven't seen for some time, he told me the gov now has hoarding laws.

In other words, it's against the law to 'hoard.' Whatever that means.


Does anyone know anything about this? Is this Federal, or state to state?
So are "they" going to prosecute the entire Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints? As I seem to recall, (I could be wrong), that each family tries to keep three years supply of food.

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  #41  
Old 01/21/08, 05:56 AM
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After reading the info on the above provided link, it seems that it is most anything, food, communictions, property, your family, life, etc., that is covered under a potential or current excutive order. It really isn't going to matter if this happens to everyone if it happens to YOU (or me).
Many of EOs listed on that page are things we covered in Social Studies class in school.

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  #42  
Old 01/21/08, 07:00 AM
 
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Even the government says you should stock up.

Just don't go in the store when a hurricane is comming and buy up everything and not let others get some too. Thats hoarding.
Stocking up a little at a time is buying. That is good for the economy.

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  #43  
Old 01/21/08, 08:58 AM
 
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I would never hoarde.

I have every confidence that my elected officials have my best interests in mind.

I also have every confidence that FEMA will respond IMMEDIATELY and ADEQUATELY in a time of emergency.

Why on earth would anyone want to horde??

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  #44  
Old 01/21/08, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hintonlady
I would never hoarde.

I have every confidence that my elected officials have my best interests in mind.

I also have every confidence that FEMA will respond IMMEDIATELY and ADEQUATELY in a time of emergency.

Why on earth would anyone want to horde??


I totally believe you.
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  #45  
Old 01/21/08, 11:47 AM
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Not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado
Hoarding is buying up when in short supply more than needed at the time.

Stocking your cellar and pantry is something else.
I have just checked several reputable dictionaries and find that they don't all show the same meaning for the word hoard. Most do however mention hidden, secret, or concealed when trying to define hoard or hoarding. None mention acquiring during a time of short supply.

Being prepared or hoading--seems to be a fine line and with a different thought by each individual.
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  #46  
Old 01/21/08, 12:53 PM
 
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"each family tries to keep three years supply of food."

Nope - Church preaches one year, but three years is good.

The laws that are most applicable are the Executive orders that establish rules for FEMA. Its one of the reasons I so dislike NAIS. My animals are part of my food storage - NAIS just tells FEMA where they are and what kind they are so they can be rounded up easily for redistribution to the masses.

Here are the Fema Related Executive Orders:

First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919:

10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the US;
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency").

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  #47  
Old 01/21/08, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YuccaFlatsRanch
"each family tries to keep three years supply of food."

Nope - Church preaches one year, but three years is good.

The laws that are most applicable are the Executive orders that establish rules for FEMA. Its one of the reasons I so dislike NAIS. My animals are part of my food storage - NAIS just tells FEMA where they are and what kind they are so they can be rounded up easily for redistribution to the masses.

Here are the Fema Related Executive Orders:

First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919:

10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the US;
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency").
I'm going to have to look that up.

Some of it is pretty scary, some of it is plain disgusting.....especially the part about splitting families.

Where is the order to make the swastika a part of the flag?
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  #48  
Old 01/21/08, 02:18 PM
 
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okay, I skimmed over the executive orders.

Here's the thing IMHO. I tend to read a lot into stuff like that so am usually the first to cry foul. I looked at the 3 most offensive to my life orders.

I didn't find them to be as much of a shock as anticipated. These laws are very vague and obviously set up to manage a MAJOR sized disaster.

I would like to think that these types of actions are reserved for worst case scenario as anything else is just too risky to the American public. In the end we have to trust the government to at least TRY to do the right thing. (abusing these laws would cause widespread dissent and more danger)

Ultimately our opininions as individuals are meaningless. The spirit of these orders are to rebuild a very broken nation. (signed by Kennedy.....)

Yeah it would be bad if they were implemented. We are numbers, small insignificant members of a herd that must go on, with or without us individuals. Fighting tooth and nail to survive when one can help the community as a whole is an individual choice.

Sacrificing a few for many is a simple tradition. I do it on my farm all the time. There is no place for Ego in times of disaster, like it or not.

I for one would be proud to farm for Uncle Sam and hand everything over except basic foods for my family. I would be proud to help feed this nation in a time of desperation. I wouldn't need them to force me to do that. I would volunteer it. I would stand tall even if a bit leaner.

Likewise, my livestock is set up in categories. Breeding stock and slaughter. Even a government, city raised, pencil pushing monkey would realize you DO NOT slaughter breeding stock if you want to survive. As for slaughter, same as above. If I am fed I can live on another day to do what I do best........

Make food for the masses and raise a family who can continue the habit.

The bankers will have to worry about these laws LONG before hardy homesteaders like us do.............

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  #49  
Old 01/21/08, 04:14 PM
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Hon, I don't trust anybody to choose between my breeding stock and what can go to feed "the masses". Don't trust them, no way, no how. I sincerely doubt any person coming around to confiscate my animals is going to bother to leave my breeding stock. Won't matter to them that those may be the last of the breed in existence, especially after some other confiscatory action has taken the breeding stock from my friends. Some of us are trying to revive nearly extinct breeds and have spread the stock to as many breeders as we can, in hopes that one catastrophe won't wipe that breed from the face of the earth.

Nothing personal, I just don't trust the "authorities".

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  #50  
Old 01/21/08, 06:54 PM
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I did a google search for Executive Order #10998 and have been looking up info. This is some info from one site (I will try to post the address later). These were under "definitions"

a) "Food resources" means all commodities and products, simple, mixed or compound, or complements to such commodities or products, that are capable of being eaten or drunk, by either human beings or animals' irrespective of other uses to which such commodities or products may be. put, at all stages of processing from the raw commodity to the products thereof in vendible form for human or animal consumption. For the purposes of this order the term "food resources" shall also include all starches, sugars, vegetable and animal fats and oils, cotton, tobacco, wool, mohair, hemp, flax fiber, and naval stores, but shall not include any such material after it loses its identity as an agricultural commodity or agricultural product.

(b) "Farm equipment" means machinery, equipment and repair parts manufactured primarily for use

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  #51  
Old 01/21/08, 06:58 PM
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http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=58936
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  #52  
Old 01/21/08, 07:04 PM
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http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/12919.htm

This was EO 12919
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  #53  
Old 01/21/08, 07:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyngbaeld
Hon, I don't trust anybody to choose between my breeding stock and what can go to feed "the masses". Don't trust them, no way, no how. I sincerely doubt any person coming around to confiscate my animals is going to bother to leave my breeding stock. Won't matter to them that those may be the last of the breed in existence, especially after some other confiscatory action has taken the breeding stock from my friends. Some of us are trying to revive nearly extinct breeds and have spread the stock to as many breeders as we can, in hopes that one catastrophe won't wipe that breed from the face of the earth.

Nothing personal, I just don't trust the "authorities".
I can dig that.

The thing is, in the event something like this could happen (because as always on here we speak in the hypothetical or in theory)

The one who is right has the biggest guns, end of story. I have a self preservation mode that is just fine seeing a "means to an end" even if the means are unpleasant.

Being cooperative or at least looking to be cooperative, when all other reasonable means are exhausted can be another means of preparedness. When the world is starving people such as ourselves who are resourceful and can produce, not just consume will be valuable assets.

People who only get take out, whine when they have no luxuries etc. will be much lower on "the list" than hardy, resourceful folks such as you and I. Although we could be burdened by beuaracracy they will need people like us to survive themselves. They will need people like us to rebuild a nation, even if it is a mutated one.

As a livestock owner you can at least understand culling weak stock before the hardy, survive on poor pasture stock, no? Same would go for "survivors" of disaster.

Think about it.......who would you want on your side, me/people like us or John/Jane Doe city dweller of convenience and privilige?

I am sure the fat cats will still need to eat and still rather not get dirty. That is our saving grace even when all becomes ugly beyond recognition. Survival isn't always pretty.
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  #54  
Old 01/21/08, 07:34 PM
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I don't think they'd really want to prosecute you.... cause then they'd have to feed ya...

I think they'd want to just confiscate what you've got... legal thievin with a badge...

I don't hoarde, I store in a time of plenty...

"Taking" my food is a risky business... as certain items if eaten will most certainly kill you overnight.... ...that is, if the lead don't get the confiscators first....

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  #55  
Old 01/21/08, 08:10 PM
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"Might makes right."

"In the face of arms the law is silent."

These are two of the oldest facts of human nature there are.

If there are enough folks out there that want what they think you have then whether by law, by Executive Order, emergency decree, or simple naked force they will have it if you have no way to prevent them from taking it.

A closed mouth gathers no government busybodies.

A closed mouth gathers no folks looking for you to share your wealth with them.

This is one of the most fundamental facts of any kind of preparedness. It always has been and likely always will be.

Wringing your hands over this or that Executive Order, a legal definition of "hoarding" from some place or other that may or may not apply to you, the unknowable decision making of some future emergency management authorities accomplishes nothing more than wasting your time and giving you indigestion.

Do what you are going to do and if you are concerned that the government, military, zombie mob, or martians are going to take it away from you then keep your mouth shut.

In a time of extreme emergency the man with the gun makes the rules. Period. Stop.

Keep your mouth shut and your profile low and the man with the gun will not have any reason to get into your hair. Make contingency plans in case your primary plan should fail. DO NOT expect the government, the rampaging mob, the zombies, or whatever to play nice just because you bought it all five years ago and can produce receipts or that you produced it all yourself. That world exists only in fairy tales.

We are survivalists here. Planning for such contingencies is a significant part of what we are about. If you can't deal with this then stop wasting your time and money in preparedness and go back to your television.

.....Alan.

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  #56  
Old 01/21/08, 09:23 PM
 
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Will have a cache/long term storage class at our spring gathering 4-5-6 April NC/SC SE of Charlotte. Will show how to effectively put up goodies that will last longer than you will live and be viable right on. If you do not have it in your home they cannot take it. Tips on where/how to place them to avoid detection etc. wc

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  #57  
Old 01/21/08, 09:33 PM
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So much hand wringing. :baby04:

Alan said it best. Survivalist survive because they keep their mouth shut and just do what they need to do. Other than one daughter and folks on the forum, NO ONE knows and daughter and you don't know all that much. I am just that eccentric old lady down the street that grows a lot of flowers and waves at everybody as they drive by.

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  #58  
Old 01/22/08, 11:16 AM
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I agree with that Alan.
I have apparently not seen the other info about this under past threads. For me this was more of an eye opener (although it goes along with what I have suspected) and guess I am under the, possibly mistaken, belief that if more people know what is REALLY in place, it will be an eye opener, too. Obviously one will not believe it if one is inclined that way, no matter what eveidence is presented. I am the type of person who wants facts before believeing but also have known to I would like to think there are others here that have read this, learned and done some research, maybe getting that little push needed to get off the fence if that is where one is perched.

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  #59  
Old 01/22/08, 02:13 PM
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Most of the Executive Orders they passed were put in place for a plan they called Continuity of Government. Their goal is to make sure the government continues to exist. Of course, that might mean some citizens have to make BIG sacrifices, whether they want to or not, so the government can continue to exist(and to run things). They've built and stocked plenty of shelters for government officials, but, like others have said, stockpiled supplies do run out eventually.
They may never use any of those Executive Orders or the other plans they've made, but the fact that they have them available doesn't make me feel very comfortable. I've read enough history to notice the pattern. People who get power often abuse it.

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  #60  
Old 01/22/08, 09:10 PM
 
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Hoarding? We ain't hoarding. We have collections.
Wife collects food, I collect lead and guns. Now, git!

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