Are we living through the end of history

TNHermit · #1 07/14/13, 03:30 PM

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/5080/full

Are we living through the end of history? Not in the Hegelian sense that Francis Fukuyama used the phrase in the immediate aftermath of the Cold War, meaning that with the triumph of liberal democracy, world history had reached its ultimate goal. As subsequent events have shown, this was a case of wishful thinking by a political scientist, not a historian.
No, I mean the end of history as the central pillar of high culture and national identity. History in this sense is not the same as historiography or historical scholarship, of which there is more than ever before. Nor is it the same as the popularisation of history, history as pure entertainment, which is also flourishing. What has become problematic is the assumption that general historical knowledge, an informed consciousness of our past, is the essential framework for Western civilisation. It is the decline of history in this sense that lies behind the heated debates about the teaching of history at school and university. The loss of such a temporal dimension has brought about a profound change in the outlook of the West: a loss of organic connection, not only with those who came before us, but with our place in the world. Clive James memorably described this phenomenon as "cultural amnesia", and Eric Voegelin adopted the theological concept of "anamnesis" to describe our attempts to preserve transcendent memories. Yet such remembrances of time past, whether they express rage against the dying of the light of history as a force in intellectual life, or acquiescence in its oblivion, are at best rearguard actions.

unregistered168043 · #2 07/14/13, 03:37 PM

I cannot pretend to have understood anything in that post. A little too high brow and abstract for me.

Ernie · #3 07/14/13, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darntootin

I cannot pretend to have understood anything in that post. A little too high brow and abstract for me.

Basically it implies that if we fail to teach the next generation how we got here and why, then all of their context of the world will disintegrate and we'll never get it back.

Which I don't know is true. I'm sure there have been long periods in the history of western civilization where the current population of the day didn't really have any context. Like perhaps in 500 AD a peasant in a hut in France didn't know they'd once been part of the Roman empire.

Frankly, I'm more concerned with how future historians will look back on this time ... and I don't think they're going to be kind.

TNHermit · #4 07/14/13, 04:12 PM

Think of it like this. Hitler got elected. Pretty much every dictator got elected. What we are going through is nothing new. So why is that. "Those that don't know history are bound to repeat it "

The Zimmerman verdict is in and it proves beyond a doubt that people in this country are clueless. If they knew history they would know its a diversion from reality.

And stuff like above is stuff our forefathers talked about when they were in their teens

AngieM2 · #5 07/14/13, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNHermit

Think of it like this. Hitler got elected. Pretty much every dictator got elected. What we are going through is nothing new. So why is that. "Those that don't know history are bound to repeat it "

The Zimmerman verdict is in and it proves beyond a doubt that people in this country are clueless. If they knew history they would know its a diversion from reality.

And stuff like above is stuff our forefathers talked about when they were in their teens

Why do you say

Quote:

The Zimmerman verdict is in and it proves beyond a doubt that people in this country are clueless. If they knew history they would know its a diversion from reality.

I don't know that I, or others may be understanding the context of this remark.

ldc · #6 07/14/13, 04:28 PM

Am not sure about the history part, except to say that the end of the "middle class" has a anhistorical piece to it.Besides the economic aspects.

TNHermit · #7 07/14/13, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngieM2

Why do you say

I don't know that I, or others may be understanding the context of this remark.

What happened to Benghazi, IRS. how many blacks are killed on a weekend in Chicago 10-15. 50 60 shot.

The whole thing has been a political and a show trial to get peoples minds off reality. its given a platform for all those trying to destroy this country to set out there an scream as many ridiculous things as one can think of anymore. They have had free reign for over a year on this thing

If people knew history they would shut off the TV ignore the left and be clamoring for and end to what is going on in reality. Have you heard any of the outrageous statements Obama has made lately, how about executive orders. Do you hear that much about immigration except for paid for phony conservative ads.
The British get more news about what is going on here than we do. The Egyptians care more about freedom than we do. Even Rush has given up on thinking people are basically intelligent. And he has preached that since he has been on radio.

soulsurvivor · #8 07/14/13, 04:45 PM

I don't know. I think it goes something like history belongs to those who won the war. Or maybe history belongs to those who know how to travel outside of time. Ya, you know them. They're the ones that jump in at the head of the line and claim they were there all along when actually they weren't. In the meantime you and yours die off and forget when reentering this world what your past experience was, only to be met with this wild story of how some hard to identify elite have been taking care of everything in your absence. Huh?

I've been thoroughly enjoying myself watching and reading about the discovery of the crypt of Alexander the Great and family in southern Illinois. Sounds really out there doesn't it? But actually, I think it's legit. At least that's what the relic stones are saying:

Here's some of the artifacts:

So what is true history? Maybe we need to take up rock whittling.

Harry Chickpea · #9 07/14/13, 05:06 PM

I doubt many here even know who Hegel was, much less have the co-hones to dissect and discuss Nietzsche. The article was funny. The first half was flogging favorite books (complete with prices), the second half a reminiscence of school.

Our forefathers didn't discuss Nietzsche anyway (too late for the party). Those who had a classic liberal education did have a better grounding in history and philosophy, but the percentage of people with that education was small and they were generally "rich" by the standards of the time.

Do most people not know history now? Oh yes. I'm not too sure how much to make of it. History is like learning guideposts on a solid trail through mountains. The rapid changes in technology, shifts in information and knowledge, and lack of consistent adherence to the codes of the past make this period in time a quicksand, where those old guideposts are out of reach.

Anyway, a rehash of the early dispute between focus on history and focus on current existence has a beard longer than mine. Instead, a little Nihilism is more interesting. http://www.nihil.org/ (Ayn Rand groupies will find that it is nothing at all like what Rand claimed it to be, but that is a side-point)

elkhound · #10 07/14/13, 05:11 PM

i am with you soulsurvivor....alot of history is fake....the copper mines in michigan have carbon dating of timbers to be 5000 to 6000 years old....way before chris stumbled in.they say it explains why they never found enough coppermining to go with amount of tools in bronze age they found across the pond.but with the amount mined here it makes sense now.

Indians spoke welsh and had these round boats....only 2 places they have ever been found....welsh county in u.k. and tenn/ohio.upper alabama area.

theres all kinds of paleo hebrew here too.

elkhound · #11 07/14/13, 05:14 PM

history is written by the victors and controlled by the elitist in charge.

AngieM2 · #12 07/14/13, 05:21 PM

TNHermit - okay, now I understand what you are saying.

Harry Chickpea · #13 07/14/13, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhound

i am with you soulsurvivor....alot of history is fake....the copper mines in michigan have carbon dating of timbers to be 5000 to 6000 years old....way before chris stumbled in.they say it explains why they never found enough coppermining to go with amount of tools in bronze age they found across the pond.but with the amount mined here it makes sense now.

Indians spoke welsh and had these round boats....only 2 places they have ever been found....welsh county in u.k. and tenn/ohio.upper alabama area.

theres all kinds of paleo hebrew here too.

LOL! Coracles. They are found all over the world. Wikipedia even has photos of many of them.

The big problem with all of the alternate history concerning the Americas is disease. The natives had zero resistance to many of the European diseases and died en-masse even before any substantial colonization. Had there been earlier connections, there would have been the required disease resistance for them to survive. An argument can be made for one or two individuals making brief contact, but major mining operations and other big works, no. It does make for some interesting fiction though. Harry Turtledove has made a few bucks at that.

elkhound · #14 07/14/13, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

LOL! Coracles. They are found all over the world. Wikipedia even has photos of many of them.

The big problem with all of the alternate history concerning the Americas is disease. The natives had zero resistance to many of the European diseases and died en-masse even before any substantial colonization. Had there been earlier connections, there would have been the required disease resistance for them to survive. An argument can be made for one or two individuals making brief contact, but major mining operations and other big works, no. It does make for some interesting fiction though. Harry Turtledove has made a few bucks at that.

well i just going by the professors i heard from....there again its up to everyone to believe what they want to believe.

you cant explain the copper mined pre Columbus....period

TNHermit · #15 07/14/13, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhound

history is written by the victors and controlled by the elitist in charge.

If that is true where did you come upon these other points of view.

Maybe I was educated different in a pubic school We spent whole semesters on Roman and Greeks in History. More on medieval times.

In Civics we were made to read about the founding. Spent a semester in that class reading and discussing Advise and Consent. We learned then what is going on now. Its a 60 year old book and how many know it. Albert Knock "Our enemy the state" is another one

As far as Nietzsche he is not history he was a wack job

You can spend a few months here
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/

Old Vet · #16 07/14/13, 07:03 PM

We have been living in the end of history for 2012 years.

Johnny Dolittle · #17 07/14/13, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

LOL! Coracles. They are found all over the world. Wikipedia even has photos of many of them.

The big problem with all of the alternate history concerning the Americas is disease. The natives had zero resistance to many of the European diseases and died en-masse even before any substantial colonization. Had there been earlier connections, there would have been the required disease resistance for them to survive. An argument can be made for one or two individuals making brief contact, but major mining operations and other big works, no. It does make for some interesting fiction though. Harry Turtledove has made a few bucks at that.

But there are other scenarios... perhaps the Indians moved in after the Europeans left.... or perhaps the European diseases originated in the Europeans after they left America.

Interesting to note that Indians were not immune to European diseases .... and the Indians being isolated from Europeans did not have diseases which the Europeans were not immuned to ??????????

elkhound · #18 07/14/13, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Dolittle

But there are other scenarios... perhaps the Indians moved in after the Europeans left.... or perhaps the European diseases originated in the Europeans after they left America.

Interesting to note that Indians were not immune to European diseases .... and the Indians being isolated from Europeans did not have diseases which the Europeans were not immuned to ??????????

thomas jefferson wrote in a letter for lewis and clarke to look for evidence of welsh peoples too.....now i wonder why...hmmmm.

Harry Chickpea · #19 07/14/13, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Dolittle

But there are other scenarios... perhaps the Indians moved in after the Europeans left.... or perhaps the European diseases originated in the Europeans after they left America.

Interesting to note that Indians were not immune to European diseases .... and the Indians being isolated from Europeans did not have diseases which the Europeans were not immuned to ??????????

Syphilis, IIRC. The whole mess is pretty well documented if you want to go searching. Essentially, the Europeans lived like pigs and the ones who survived had to have amazing immune systems. American natives, OTOH, came from an Eastern Asian stock, lived fairly clean, did not have the vector animals for diseases like pigs, ruminants, and others. If you want to avoid verifying your position and believe otherwise, fine. No skin off my back.

Johnny Dolittle · #20 07/14/13, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

Syphilis, IIRC. The whole mess is pretty well documented if you want to go searching. Essentially, the Europeans lived like pigs and the ones who survived had to have amazing immune systems. American natives, OTOH, came from an Eastern Asian stock, lived fairly clean, did not have the vector animals for diseases like pigs, ruminants, and others. If you want to avoid verifying your position and believe otherwise, fine. No skin off my back.

I do not think Europeans developed immunity to syphilis and since the indians were so clean living the disease would not have easily spread through their populations.

.... and I do not need to verify my position since I was only suggesting other possible scenarios.

Also.... white man's disease may have diminished indian populations but many survived and so those were the ones having better immune systems. The Indians as a people still survived..... and if white man mined for bronze hundreds of years before Columbus..... there is no reason to think indians would not have as a people survived white man's diseases then !!!!