Lets talk sourdough

[hintonlady]

Background:

*Have made sourdough with traditional ingredients.
*Have caught wild yeast strains

Issue:

*Tried* to make a sourdough loaf with JUST the starter and no additional yeast. The basic idea was to be able to make bread with minimal resources. ie: Nothing besides flour and water (which are used to capture wild yeast as well) All the recipes I have call for additional quick rise yeast so essentially the sourdough is a flavoring agent and not a leavening agent.

I made a loaf with just basic ingredients but did not add extra yeast to get the rise. Thought if it was given extra time with just the sourdough yeast it would eventually rise.

Nope!

Took 2 days and made a flat disgusting loaf that was too sour. Felt as if I would be better off with simple flat bread vs. risen in a shtf scenario.

To complicate matters, I would eventually like to go whole wheat which any bread maker knows ups the ante quite a bit.

Ideally I would like to use whole wheat flour and water to capture a yeast. (have accomplished that) Then I would like to take that sponge and add it to a w.w. flour and water dough and actually get it to rise and turn into a palatable loaf.

Then, cooked in a wood fired adobe oven...but that is the bouns round.

I would love it if you guys could share your sourdough experiences, trials and tribulations.

Thanks.

[Raeven]

It took awhile, but I mastered making my sourdough with only starter, water, flour and salt.

I used to have the same results as you. I learned I need to amp up my starter for a day or so before I use it to make my bread. So usually a couple of days before I want to bake, I use my starter for something like pancakes, then freshen it with new flour and water. Sometimes it takes a couple of freshenings over a day or two to get it good and active again. THEN I make an overnight sponge; and then I make my bread. My bread is a good 14-16 hour process.

No help on the whole wheat sourdough loaf, but I did learn that I have far better results with my sourdough using all-purpose unbleached white flour rather than bread flour. That is completely counter-intuitive to me, but it made a world of difference to the crumb of my loaves.

Hope there is something of use for you here! Best of luck, and please share your own experiences with us!

[SquashNut]

This is the recipe i use.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sur...sourdough.html
I made the sour dough started with flour water and yeast to start with, but it requires no further yeast.
Starter was made with one cup flour, 2/3 c water and a pkg of yeast. Took 4 days before i could use it. We made pancakes only with the starter for the first use.

I've made a few things from this article too.
http://packham.n4m.org/sourdrec.htm

[foxfiredidit]

I too am frustrated with the sourdough project. I made a starter (with potato water) and it smelled like beer, you could see it working, and I thought I was on the right track. I had the starter out on the table, covered with a fine wire strainer. About 3 hours before I went to make a loaf, I added a cup of flour and a half cup of warm water to the starter. It began bubbling and I then went ahead with making the dough. Let the dough sit for 12 hours and it rose maybe by 1/3 in size. Punched it down, kneaded it and let it rise for another 2 hours, it had only risen by about 1/3 in size again. I baked it and now use that loaf for a doorstop down at the cattle barn.

So I was thinking it had to be the yeast. Maybe the kitchen was too cool. Maybe I am too much of a rookie. I ditched the starter I had and started fresh. This time I used a packet of quick yeast (with unchlorinated water), left the starter out on the table for a week and fed it every other day. It smelled like beer (kinda), I fed it about 3 hours prior to making the dough. All looked well. I got a bit more rise out of it. I punched it down and made the loaf. After another 3 hours it had risen about 1/3 again. I baked it. It rose pretty good but when I cut into it the texture was a bit like soft rubber. Now I'm baking just normal bread which ain't bad, but it's not the sourdough I want.

I'm going to try again now that warmer weather is here. I hope the yeast floating around in the air or where ever, is abundant and ready to be baked. Somehow though, I have a dismal feeling about it.

[hintonlady]

I was not as pleased with tater water starter as I was plain water. It got funky pretty fast and was not nearly as forgiving as the standard yeast, flour and water. My experiment was probably skewed since my "wild starter" was within a few inches of the yeast starter. Probably should do one at a time or do one outside to get a pure wild strain.

I can make a killer loaf of sourdough when adding additional yeast after the sourdough starter gets the flavor started in the first rise. It really is a challenge without added yeast.

Maybe what I am envisioning doesn't exist. Lots of older cultures either have flat breads or very thick crust breads. Maybe when you hear about the 49ers during the gold rush they would eat pretty much anything and even a slight rise may be better than a hard tack. Maybe old school bread without store bought yeast is supposed to be gross?

I wonder what we are missing. I really want to make a basic survival bread that doesn't taste nasty.

[hsmom2four]

I cannot grow and keep a sourdough alive. I have tried many starters that I've bought and homemade ones and nothing works. It goes bad very quickly. I even bought a fancy crock and it didn't work in that either. I think its my climate? If SHTF we will have to make tortillias on the cast iron griddle over the fire pit. That's my plan anyway.

[sandc]

I play with a lot of sourdoughs around here, and have hd good luck with several of the ones from sourdoughhome.com. After reading through his website and playing with some of the different starters I have to say it has been a learning experience

[scooter]

I haven't had any luck with the starter either. I especially would like to duplicate the sourdough cracked wheat bread that Wal-Mart use to have in their bakery around 10 years ago. Loved it, then all of a sudden they didn't carry it anymore.

[Ohio Rusty]

I have starter .... it's alive as I can see it is a little spongy. My sourdough bread will rise some, but then it finished into a heavy dense loaf that is not light and poofy like a loaf of bread you get at the store. It tastes fine, and would be fine in a survival situation if you were hungry and needed a bread.

I feed my starter sometimes twice a day, mostly once a day. I use a tablespoon of flour, and a tablespoon of water and mix that in well so there are no lumps left. I think the constant feeding is what keeps it going, but I don't do alot of feeding at a time as I would have more starter than I can use. The next batch of bread I make, I'll make it like regular bread (flour, salt, dry milk, butter and a yeast pack), but I'll cut out 3/4 of the water amount, and replace that liquid amount with sourdough starter

Ohio Rusty ><>

I used to have a mind like a steel trap. Nowadays my mind is more like a steel sieve !!

[painterswife]

My starter lives on the counter and gets fed a few times a week up to everyday depending on how much I will need. I often just add a tablespoon of floor and no water until I am going to use it and then do add both. I do my first rise at 12 -15 hours. I also have invested in a proofer. It has made a world of difference in a good rise.

[hintonlady]

Originally Posted by painterswife

I also have invested in a proofer. It has made a world of difference in a good rise.

That sounds awesome. I bake enough where it would come in handy if I had any counter or cabinet space left. As it is I have to lug half of my gadgets out of the basement when I want to use them.

I just set the dough (covered) in the oven and leave the light on. It seems to generate enough warmth that way.

[Dutch 106]

Hey,
I threw my first two batchs of starter away because I thought they had spoiled?
I have had luck with wild caught yeasts but have also used store bought and feed it to keep it gpoing I think feeding it the night before worked best for me and no I have never done it with home ground flour yet!
Dutch

[CJ]

I never had much luck starting my own, but I bought a packaged culture from Italy:
Italian Cultures (includes 2) | Sourdoughs International

And it's absolutely fabulous. I rarely make anything but sourdough anymore, and I don't need any yeast, this stuff is explosive! I have found the "trick" for me is to keep a thick starter, more flour seems to make for some very happy yeastie beasties!

[Raeven]

I wrote a post yesterday for this thread and then lost it thanks to a wonky internet connection! Waahh!

Some things I mentioned in my lost post: I let my sponge do its overnight thing covered with cling film (spray lightly with oil) and a flour sack towel under a heat lamp, so a very warm environment is helpful. Then I add the rest of my flour and do the second rise, also with the cling film, loosely, and flour sack towel and under a heat lamp. Second rise is for no longer than an hour and a half, else the yeasties will spend themselves.

When I shape into loaves for the third rise, I don't punch down my dough -- I try to preserve the work that the yeast has already done as much as is possible while shaping the loaves. Final rise, also covered as noted above and under the heat lamp, is for no longer than 35 minutes. About 20 minutes into the final rise is when I slash them.

[hintonlady]

Originally Posted by Raeven

I wrote a post yesterday for this thread and then lost it thanks to a wonky internet connection! Waahh!

Some things I mentioned in my lost post: I let my sponge do its overnight thing covered with cling film (spray lightly with oil) and a flour sack towel under a heat lamp, so a very warm environment is helpful. Then I add the rest of my flour and do the second rise, also with the cling film, loosely, and flour sack towel and under a heat lamp. Second rise is for no longer than an hour and a half, else the yeasties will spend themselves.

When I shape into loaves for the third rise, I don't punch down my dough -- I try to preserve the work that the yeast has already done as much as is possible while shaping the loaves. Final rise, also covered as noted above and under the heat lamp, is for no longer than 35 minutes. About 20 minutes into the final rise is when I slash them.

That all sounds nice but it's hard for me to break down into simpler terms. Think you could make a simple schedule like:

8 a.m. get starter out of fridge
10 a.m. add flour
etc. etc.

Thanks




CJ, I may have to get some of that yeast, explosive sounds great!

BTW, I may have to consider that thicker starter trick. My recipes call for a pancake thickness starter rather than a spongey one. I am sure I can improvise though since I can make standard bread without a recipe.


Hoping I can post back with a better experiment and result.

[woodsy]

I never do the overnight sponge process and have good rising delicious sourdough bread every time.
Starter comes out of the fridge a few hrs before mixing all the ingredients for the bread .
Sometime put the crock in a sunny window to speed things up.
Seems people who use mostly or all WW flour have the most trouble with rising a sourdough bread.
We use mostly bread flour, at least 3/4 of the mix is bread flour.
and 3/4 cup of starter for two loaves
First rise in a warm place takes 5-6 hrs usually, 2nd rise 1-2 hrs.
When finished the top of the loaves is 1-2" above the bread pan.

The starter should be packed with tiny bubbles on top when active.
We use a thick consistency starter, thicker than pancake batter.

Keep trying !

A starter from scratch takes about a week in most cases to be ready for use in bread.

[CJ]

Here's what I do. I feed my starter, and let that sit on the counter for about 8 hours. I then put about a cup back into a jar in the fridge, and use the rest to make my dough, when I then let proof overnight on the counter. In the morning, I shape it, let it rise 2-3 hours, and bake.

I nearly always bake mine as a boulle in a covered dutch oven (clay or cast iron) and bake it at 500 degrees, either in the oven or outside on my big green egg.

I like the boulle shape because it's easy to shape without collapsing the air bubbles much. When I use my dough for pizza crusts, I always stretch and toss, never use a rolling pin.

[hintonlady]

I haven't even used a smidgen of WW yet, lol. I use unbleached white flour. I also shape loaves rather than put them in a pan. I know it sounds silly but I never considered making a sourdough in a bread pan. *duh* That may help since I lose my rise when I lay a loaf on a sheet pan. It seems to spread out/collapse under it's own weight. Maybe need to shoot for smaller loaves. I had been using a 2 lb. recipe which as you know is a big batch-o-dough.

Processing this here has helped me see some critical errors.

I think I'm going to thicken my starter and use a pan next. Probably tomorrow since it is a little late and too hectic for me to do it today. Will report back.

edited to add: I put a pan of water on the bottom rack, the steam makes a nice chewey crust, in my other breads anyway.

[CJ]

Hintonlady, your loaves are spreading out likely because of improper shaping. You need to develop "surface tension" on the dough skin in order for it to hold its shape without a pan. Here's a video on the technique:

Boule Shaping - YouTube

[woodsy]

yeah, our boule always came out kinda flat too so we have been sticking to the bread pan loaves.
Makes the best toast ever w/butter.