Woodstove help...

[RedTartan]

Some of you suggested I skip the kerosene heater and just get a woodstove. I've been looking into it a little and I can get a simple woodstove for $250 from Tractor Supply. Or I can get this from Northern Tool for $199: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_796_796

The one from TS is like this one, but larger (read as we don't have to cut the wood so small.) I've been researching woodstoves for years and I still feel like I know nothing about them. Is "Vogelzang" a particularly good stove or should I get the no name larger one from TS? I know that the "tighter" a stove is, the more efficient the burn, but I can't tell a tight stove from a loose one which is why I haven't bought a second hand stove.

I feel like I can't learn any more about woodstoves without actually having a "starter stove". Which of these would you recommend?

[Rocktown Gal]

Well I am not much help...but the hubby and I have also thought about buying the one from TSC. We do not have a wood stove now...but want one installed for this winter. It will also allow us to cook on it if the power goes out.

I will watch this to see other that are more experienced to give their opinion.

[TNHermit]

Why not make your own from a barrel kit or buy a 250 gal propane tank and make one. Thats what I have in my shop.

Every wood stove is different even the same brand. They are all like people Each one will have its own burning habits. You have different wood, the draft can be different. Even air currents in the house effect things.

The only way your going to learn a wood stove is to use it. Its the same with kitchen stoves.

I don't know how many I have owned. Right now I have six doing various jobs. One of the best with the least fooling around I had was a "Hitzer"

http://www.hitzer.com/products/stove/Model-82-Furnace/

Vogelzang name has been around a long time but I don't think the newer stoves are that good. Nothing cheap is going to be airtight.

you can do a barrel kit with eh barrel up right, on its side or a double barrel.

[farmerpat]

Red - I can speak from experience, as we have this exact same Vogelszang stove out in our large shop/garage (I bought it last fall). My adult son installed it, and it seems to do a fine job, and handles decent-sized pieces of wood. I bought this particular one because you can cook on it if you need to (flat top), and it's easy to feed, either through the eyes on top or from the door. It turned out to be such a hit that d/s put some comfy upholstered chairs around it and a table nearby, and his friends used to come over and congregate around it in the winter and "hang out". He has his own place now, but the stove is still a big hit, AND it makes working out in the shop in the winter nice and toasty! It seems to burn quite a long time, and seems to burn efficiently. I own 4 woodstoves, and wouldn't hesitate to order another one of these.

[mpillow]

Your chimney and understanding about how wood burns is equally as important as the stove you get...
We originally had a cook stove and a box stove in our cabin when we bought it but have since enlarged and modernized and have the same "Shanendoah" heater in both our house and cabin...its a sheet metal box with an elevated grate(coal alternative) and lower ash drawer that is about 30" long 36" high and 24" wide (about $800 new). If you get the box stove there is a log grate add on that will help with air flow and improve the burn quality and reduce creosote buildup and also allow you to make a hot fire for boiling when cooking...
a small fan is also a nice add on (even just a desktop to push the heat around)
good dry hard wood....1-2yrs dry
We have always heated with wood and my husband is a Master oil burner tech, go figure!

[timfromohio]

The stoves you are looking at are on the low end - what is the application? If you plan on heating your home with it, I would not recommend one of these.

In general, there are four variables when dealing with wood stoves, split between two categories. First category is the material of construction - here, you have either (1) cast iron or (2) plate steel. Stoves may also feature soapstone, but the frame of the stove is still metal. Cast iron looks nice and current cast iron stoves are far better than older ones, which required the gaskets to be re-done every so often. Plate steel, with welded joints, tend to be more robust and don't require gasket maintenance. Second category is, at least with modern stoves, how the stove achieves its EPA efficiency rating. A stove with either utilize (3) a catalytic converter or (4) secondary burn. I highly recommend the latter, as the catalyst must be replaced (again, frequency depends on how much you use the stove) and that is costly - catalyst is platinum, enough said. So, there you have it - iron vs. plate steel, cat vs. secondary burn. Once you get past those, you then must consider the size of the fire box (bigger is indeed better in this instance if you want to heat your home with the stove and not have to constantly re-load) and the overall appearance of the stove. If the stove will be in a place in your home where you'll look at it a lot, don't go cheap - get something you'll enjoy looking at.

Next comes the most important part - safety!!! You must have the stove installed properly using only the configuration and materials specified for your particular appliance - no skimping in this category. Often, you can easily spend as much, or more, on stove and chimney pipe as you did the stove, but you don't want to mess around with safety. Have the stove installed according to NFPA 411 code. I highly recommend the forum over at www.hearth.com (on the main page go to the drop down menu, go the forums, and start poking around). Excellent bunch of folks (who are all, like me, addicted to wood burning). You can look at reviews of differents kinds of stoves, get help on installation, etc. I am not associated with that site at all, just really enjoy it and have learned a ton from the folks over there.

Only burn dry, well seasoned wood as well.

Personally, we have a Napolean 1150P (steel stove, but has a cast iron top with 2 burners for cooking) and a Pacific Energy insert.

Good luck and let everyone know what you decide.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

i wouldn't buy new anything but an air tight epa rated stove that was UL listed
first it will take up so much less space , and heat that much better , your insurance company will have that much less of an issue with it (mine didn't raise the rates at all for a properly installed UL listed stove)

first were are you putting it , you probably have a wall or corner picked out
look at the tollerances every stove worth buying has these in a downloadable manual get out your masking tape and lay it out on the floor , whats above it , do you have an existing chimney or will this be a new chinney new is probably better the new tripple wall metalbestos stainless chimneys are very good , but your going to want to go strait up if at all possable mine had to have a jog right before the ceiling box but the part i clean that is fastened in the house is all strait.

why epa listed , and i prefer non catilitic - they just burn with that much more controll wood lasts longer and more heat is in the house and not up the chimney
really the difference is from about 55% efficient for a non air tight box stove to 83% for the most efficient of the air tights with most 78-82% a 1/4 of your heat is a 1/4 less wood you have to cut.

look at lopi , quadrafire , vermont castings , nepolean , jotol , and Morso they al lmake good stoves

tolerances of a 200 dollar box stove are 24 inches i all directions from combustable surefaces where a good air tight can have tolerences of 3-7 inches from the wall in the back 8-9 inches on the sides and 16-18 inches in front of the stove is 24x24 a non rated stove is going to need a pad 6feet by 6 feet were a rated stove of the same size would need a pad 4 feet by 3 feet , an that is a lot of realestate in your room. on top of the efficiency , less wood , loading less often , tending less, less cutting , less stacking, and more space , check with your insurance it will likly be less , a difference depending on how much you use it that could pay for te more expensive stove in just a short time.
with the saving we had on fule oil the year we baught it ( that year it was 4.06 dollars a gallon it is back to about 2.50 now) , it paid for it's self in under 2 years,

you need the same chimney for either stove basicaly so whats a few hundred more on the stove after you have spent all that on the chimney , look for show room floor modle stoves they are usualy about 1/2 price thats how i got mine it was a 2k stove down to 999 , the chimney at 50 dollars a foot was about and 500 for the factory owned store guys to install and make my mother ad my insrance company happy , and about 200 for the hearth materials to make the natural slate hearth pad my wife wanted so all said about 2700 but worth it like is said fule oil was 4.06 that year we usualy used 700 gallons and are now down to 200 a year thats what our tank holds so if i have it filled before winter i know i can go the hole season without a fill and that is peace of mind.

[MrCalicoty]

I considered the Vogelzang for quite a while because of cost. I ended up not getting one because they are made in China. Instead, I was fortunate to know a furnace repair guy who was doing a job for someone nearby that was tearing out an "old" Fisher wood burner. The fisher was made out of 1/4" steel with a cast iron door. I paid about the same price but it's a far better stove with excellent damping for fire control.

Maybe you could ask a couple of furnace folks in your area to keep an eye out for you. That's what I did and it only took a couple of weeks for an expert to find a great stove at a great price. Plus, I paid him to install it so it was a win/win.

I heat a 900sq ft shop with it and burn all my scrap wood and then some extra firewood from the house supply but I pay almost nothing for my shop heating.

BTW, I still have a couple of small Kerosene heaters and a small propane (tank top) heater for knocking the chill out in the mornings that I will use for maybe 20 minutes (max) while the wood stove is heating up. It's not necessary but things heat up really fast on the coldest of days. I work in my shop 6 days a week and I love it. In fact, I'd rather work in the coldest of days inside the shop than try to stay cool with the recent hot weather we've had!

Here's the stove I have: It's comparable in size to the larger one (Vogelzang) that TSC sells. They go (used) for about $300.

[WanderingOak]

I second what GreenCountryPete said about the tolerances of a cheap stove. You get what you pay for, and for $200-$250, it ain't going to be much. Also, unless the stove is UL listed (which the TS model isn't), I seriously doubt if your insurance company is going to be happy.

[woodsy]

If you have young children, consider the potential burn danger factor if you install a boilerplate steel or cast iron wood stove in your living space. These stoves can get very hot on the surface.
The double walled metal box stoves like Ashley makes are much safer around children, but cost a little more.
The option is to install some type of safety fence around the steel/cast iron stoves.
Whatever you decide to get, a stove that will burn all night is a big plus.

[mpillow]

Yes my safety fence doubles as a clothesline all winter.

$300 is a darn good price for a used Fisher...had one in the old house (my parents have 2 in their home)...nice but super heavy!

I love my wood stove(s) but if you don't have room for chimney or the do it yourself skills necessary...it can be tricky...block chimneys are a DIY project and cheaper than triple wall pipe(min. $500 new) plus you have all the insurance issues...most require separate chimney per device...your locality may require inspection from fire marshall....

A small generator($500 new/refurbished) will likely run your furnace....and can be switched to run water pump if you don't have city water...then your freezers etc

Do the math and factor in the convenience/flexibility factors....a generator now would give more flexibility and then add a good used wood stove when a deal comes your way...you should be able to get both done for under $1500.

[Harry Chickpea]

Just to give an idea on flue costs - a single 3' section of 6" insulated pipe is about $75 at Lowes. To go through the average roof and get high enough to be 2' above ridge line and safe from downdrafts, you'll need at least three of those, plus a $200 kit for the ceiling thimble and roof flashing.

I got a great buy on an old Dutchwest this spring and am currently looking at these costs.

[Cabin Fever]

Greencountypete gave you alot of good information

IMHO, I'd stay away from the cheap, China-built stove that you are looking at for several reasons:

1. It is not air-tight. In other words, you'll need to burn a lot more firewood and it won't be capable of an overnight burn.

2. It is not EPA rated. The secondary combustion or catylist method to meet these Federal standards not only provides cleaner emissions and less outdoor odors, but also makes the stove burn firewood more efficiently...more heat for less wood.

3. The stove is made from cast iron pieces that are bolted together...gaskets are used to seal the spaces between these peices.

4. It does not appear that the stove uses firebrick. Firebrick protects the stove from early burn out and provides some heat storage mass. Firebrick could also protect the Chinese cast iron from cracking.

5. The required setback from combustibles is 36". In most homes this means the stove will be sitting in the middle of the room.

6. The ad recommends its use for "cabins, garages, hunting camps, and lodges"...I would agree with these uses. It doesn't make a recommendation about full time use in a home.

[DW]

Fishers are very good and we have a woodsman (about the same). We have used ours 30 yrs, replaced fire brick a couple times and it is wonderful.

[RedTartan]

And this is why I don't have a stove yet. Sigh.

Someone asked about applications. This stove would serve three primary purposes: 1. Emergency heat. I'm not trying to heat my whole house. I want to have something to warm my 18' x 35' great room. 2. I could learn how to cook on a wood stove. 3. To teach us how to use a wood stove because neither my husband or myself have ever had one.

Something else to consider is money. We definitely don't have $3000 to put this thing in. That's why I was wanting a kerosene heater in the first place. To have an inexpensive heat source in case we lose power. Then people started telling me that I could get a wood stove for just a little more. Well, yes and no. With a cheap wood stove we're still looking at least $500 for the vent pipe, stove, etc. So now I'm leaning back toward my kerosene heater until I can save up several thousand dollars to get a whiz-bang wood stove professionally installed.

Some of us are beginners and have finite resources.

I appreciate the info. I'm printing it out to save for when I have the funds to do something with it. I'm also going to call my home-owners insurance on Monday to find out what their requirements are. It looks like it's going to be another year before I can afford a wood stove.

[wyld thang]

Red Tartan--I think maybe what people mught be trying to say without saying it is the Volgezang(hereafter called "Boxwood"--that is the type it is) is NOT a stove for wood stove beginners. I would sure never recommend one for someone learning to run a woodstove. From what you said it sounds like you dont' have much experience with woodstoves, I'm just trying to be realistic and honest in helping you make your choice and I hope that doesn't offend you?

That said, it's a great little stove for the price, and the correct application. If you understnad how it works, and how to run it, it's a great little stove. We have one, used it in a house (which we Red Green stuck it into a fireplace), then out here we use it as part of a smoker set up (since there was a Lopi in the house). We lined the bottom with firebrick(firebrick is cheap). We never got it super hot--it's never had structural failure(beyond door hinges becasue it sits outside now...that is understandable haha!)

The Boxwood stove is nowhere NEAR ever being rated safe enough to be used in a "normal" house(!!!!!!)--I really doubt it's on any sort of list of ok stoves. If your insurance company ever caught wind you put one of these in your house they WILL cancel your homeowners policy(and BTW< some agents do drive by's to see if people have installed wood stoves). You probably couldn't even find an installer who would install one for this reason.

Don't expect it to heat an entire house. It will heat a "cabin" or the immediate area in a shop just fine(people's shops are all different sizes with different height ceilings, and I don't know anyone who wants their entire shop to run hot anyways). If you run a good proper drafting fire with a straight up good drafting positioned stove pipe, AND have plenty of fresh air from multiple cracked windows(be vigilant about this!) the stove works great. It's great to cook on.

The is a house near me, hippy owner built(very cool). The main floor is cement, and there is one of these stoves positioned central, and cement blocks(those ones you use in foundations) are stacked all around the stove(so you can only see the door). This transfers a lot of heat to be stored and radiate out from the floor and the brick. The guy fires it up with a hot fire for a few hours in the morning and then lets it go out. The cement/brick then radiates heat the rest of the day. Tons less wood if you ask me . The brick is never too hot to the touch, and he has grown up a couple little kids next to this stove. His pipe goes straight up.

So, just saying, it's a great little stove ------>IF<------ you understand its design and function. The one I have has performed well and lasted.

It would also make a great little outdoor stove/fireplace kind of thing--just protect it from rain or else the hinge pins will rust out (haha). It's great to cook on!

[wyld thang]

I see you just posted RT, ACK! dont' call your insurance agent!!!! try to find out your info some other way--seriously, some agents are NAZIS about wood stoves, if you even are thinking about a wood stove they will drop you!

[RedTartan]

Originally Posted by wyld thang

I see you just posted RT, ACK! dont' call your insurance agent!!!! try to find out your info some other way--seriously, some agents are NAZIS about wood stoves, if you even are thinking about a wood stove they will drop you!

But what if there's a house fire (let's say it was completely unrelated to the wood stove even) and they decide not to cover me because they didn't know it was there?

Additionally, I'm not taking any offense at any information I'm getting here. I know I'm green. I grew up in a city. I'm just disappointed that I probably won't have a wood stove for another whole year and I really wanted one.

... And who knows what things will be like in a year. I feel like I urgently need to prepare and there's not much time left. The threads in here have not been for the feint of heart lately...

[wyld thang]

It's a catch 22--even if they know it's there(and you pay extra...) they STILL might decide to not pay out. It all depends on your agent. Some agents go to bat for their customers, and some work hard at saving the insurance co from paying out.

It's a great little stove, put it on your patio and get to know it. Does your house have any sort of fireplace/pipe set up already?

ANother thing re insurance, we kept the baseboard heating in our house and that *is* how we heat our house, our agent know we have a "decorative" woodstove. get my drift. (we have a great agent and my hub used to work for him). ANd the woodpile out in the yard? we sell firewood to make some beer money...

[denaliguide]

have an "Acorn Ranger"[ Canadian, made by Selkirk Metalbestos]] takes 30" wood, but saw a Fisher Grandpa Bear on FREECYCLE, and got it FREE, sans firebrick, so I feel LUCKY. Waiting to find my next place, that needs a woodstove..........

So far, so good

Originally Posted by DW

Fishers are very good and we have a woodsman (about the same). We have used ours 30 yrs, replaced fire brick a couple times and it is wonderful.