The ultimate Humanist Dilemma

[where I want to]

http://kiem-tv.com/video/recently-pl...-due-vandalism

Alternate Title- Social Zen Question: If the Homeless Crap in the Woods, Does it Really Pollute?

In the most basic, classic battle of liberal causes, there has been an ever growing population of campers in the marsh area between the biggest, albeit financially insecure, mall and Humboldt Bay. Most of the community's crime comes from there, from assaults and murders to theft. Now the relatively pristine bay has run off from the untoileted masses.
The conflicting demands of boundless sympathy for the misunderstood homeless and simultaneously maintained goal of enviromental purity of the water has had several attempts at resolution.
The city has "re purposed" a family shelter for single homeless men use. But it's summer and the camping's good. So neither it nor any of the local shelters, where-horrors- they can't engage in drug or felonious behavior attracts them. So various agencies have been holding 'fairs' in the back lot of the mall to offer various services to the homeless. But all they could brag about was placing a couple of men in subsidized housing and it took a dozen bureaucrats to do it.
The bay authority put up porta potties for homeless use but they were not effective then tipped over. Surprise surprise.
So the police have been issuing citations for illegal camping and running sweeps to clear them out. But they are just right back.
This fiasco will continue until the hopeful rains come and it is not so pleasant camping out. The crap will be washed into the bay. And all the noise will die down til next year. Unless the drought continues. Then it will be cries of 'let the lawsuits fly.'

[wiscto]

I'm a "liberal" around here. I don't care where they are, if they're refusing to take the help of shelters and other organized attempts, they don't belong on the street either, or in the park, or in the liquor store. Get cleaned up and at the very least accept assistance, or frankly, go live off my tax dollars somewhere I don't have to deal with your BS. Like jail. Tell me why a two bit pothead (with a job) who happened to have enough on him to be considered a "dealer with intent to sell" is rotting in jail while a homeless sexual assault perpetrator is chilling out in a park, crapping on the grass and drinking. I spent too much time in a park in Boulder to have any delusions about what kind of people most homeless drunks are. I do have sympathy for them, but if they don't want help that is not our fault.

[MO_cows]

Not just human waste runoff, but if they are cooking meth, burning plastic trash, you name it, it's all going into the bay. That's a shame.

When push comes to shove, the environment will win. Shoot they already put tortoises and snails and so forth above the rights and needs of humans. And environmentalists are a lot more vocal and rabid than homeless advocates as it is.

So, my money is on the environmentalists.

[Oxankle]

There has always been human detritus, the peeling skin off the body politic that cannot survive on its own. The ancients made slaves of them, or just killed them if their own families did not take them in and care for them.

The pharaohs of Egypt put them to work shoveling sand and leveling the bases of the pyramids, hauling rock, chiseling stone. In our own country we once had the county poor farm where such people were institutionalized and cared for.

I'd say that the S. W. deserts need irrigation water. We have plenty, but it is often in the wrong places. Let's take these losers, the misfits, the failed human beings, and put them to work building canals and aqueducts to take the water where it is needed.

No modern equipment, just shovels, picks, sledges and wheelbarrows. If we must feed and tend them, let's get some use of them.

[J.T.M.]

Originally Posted by Oxankle

There has always been human detritus, the peeling skin off the body politic that cannot survive on its own. The ancients made slaves of them, or just killed them if their own families did not take them in and care for them.

The pharaohs of Egypt put them to work shoveling sand and leveling the bases of the pyramids, hauling rock, chiseling stone. In our own country we once had the county poor farm where such people were institutionalized and cared for.

I'd say that the S. W. deserts need irrigation water. We have plenty, but it is often in the wrong places. Let's take these losers, the misfits, the failed human beings, and put them to work building canals and aqueducts to take the water where it is needed.

No modern equipment, just shovels, picks, sledges and wheelbarrows. If we must feed and tend them, let's get some use of them.

As a person who grew up in a railroad town (Co.Bluffs IA. / Omaha NE. ) and less than 1/2 mile from the great muddy MO.river , where some of the biggest the hobo camps in the country were I can tell you with 100 % certainty ..... you ain't getting them to do jack squat

[Tricky Grama]

Originally Posted by wiscto

I'm a "liberal" around here. I don't care where they are, if they're refusing to take the help of shelters and other organized attempts, they don't belong on the street either, or in the park, or in the liquor store. Get cleaned up and at the very least accept assistance, or frankly, go live off my tax dollars somewhere I don't have to deal with your BS. Like jail. Tell me why a two bit pothead (with a job) who happened to have enough on him to be considered a "dealer with intent to sell" is rotting in jail while a homeless sexual assault perpetrator is chilling out in a park, crapping on the grass and drinking. I spent too much time in a park in Boulder to have any delusions about what kind of people most homeless drunks are. I do have sympathy for them, but if they don't want help that is not our fault.

Post of the day award.

[wr]

We have similar problems in Calgary and throughout the warm months the city spends a great deal of time and money taking down makeshift camps along the river and on private property.

I worked at an office in one of these areas for about 10 years and if the homeless population just wanted a place to sleep, it wouldn't be too bad our yard was fenced and treed so it offered semi secluded area for addicts turn tricks, use and use the yard as a toilet so more often than not the yard area was littered with food wrappers, used syringes & condoms and on several occasions, I glanced out my office window to see folks fornicating or defecating in the front yard.

I wish there were answers or easy solutions but there doesn't seem to be but I did notice that there seemed to be an even split of garden variety hard core addicts and mental health patients off their meds.

[plowjockey]

Sounds like California can thank it's neighbor at least in part.

But then, last night, the Governor got caught off-guard by KSNV in Las Vegas. KSNV reported that Sandoval was “standing by the Las Vegas state psychiatric facility even in its darkest hour,” the facility being the Rawson-Neal Hospital that the Sacramento Bee earlier reported had shipped at least 1,500 patients out of state. According to KSNV, Sandoval went on to praise the hospital, saying there is a “good quality of care” at Rawson-Neal.

Sandoval’s proposed 2011 budget cut mental health funding by 12.4 percent. The Governor even proposed ending state support for mental health courts in Clark and Washoe Counties. With a record like that, it’s no wonder the Governor is now defending the facility accused of patient dumping. But if it is Sandoval’s strategy to defend Rawson-Neal’s patient dumping, maybe he should make sure his staff gets the memo. Because his own Health and Human Services Director admitted that the Sandoval Administration “blew it” on patient dumping.

http://nvdems.com/press/entry/sandov...facility-accus

[plowjockey]

In the most basic, classic battle of liberal causes

Indeed.

By 1975 board-and-care homes had become big business in California. In Los Angeles alone, there were “approximately 11,000 ex-state-hospital patients living in board-and-care facilities.” Many of these homes were owned by for-profit chains, such as Beverly Enterprises, which owned 38 homes. Many homes were regarded by their owners “solely as a business, squeezing excessive profits out of it at the expense of residents.” Five members of Beverly Enterprises’ board of directors had ties to Governor Reagan; the chairman was vice chairman of a Reagan fundraising dinner, and “four others were either politically active in one or both of the Reagan [gubernatorial] campaigns and/or contributed large or undisclosed sums of money to the campaign.” Financial ties between the governor, who was emptying state hospitals, and business persons who were profiting from the process would also soon become apparent in other states.

California was the first state to witness not only an increase in homelessness associated with deinstitutionalization but also an increase in incarceration and episodes of violence.

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/rona...ental_illness/

[JeffreyD]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Indeed.





http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/rona...ental_illness/

Indeed! What a biased source you have there. What about today? Why hasn't dictator Brown done something about them? Or the state legislature? City councils?

Their uber liberal, so what's the problem, or is it only a problem when a conservative is at the helm?

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Indeed! What a biased source you have there. What about today? Why hasn't dictator Brown done something about them? Or the state legislature? City councils?

Their uber liberal, so what's the problem, or is it only a problem when a conservative is at the helm?

What about it? I was responding to the "blame Liberals" chant, which ignores the fact Conservatives are responsible for this, just as much - if not more.

GOP Arnold did something about it.

Advocates for the mentally ill filed a lawsuit Thursday alleging that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger subverted the will of voters when he eliminated a $55-million program for the homeless mentally ill -- a program he himself had touted as a success.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec...al/me-mental14

It has already been determined - a long time ago, that once pandora's box, is opened, it cannot be closed again.

This is fact,sir.

In 1967, Gov. Ronald Reagan signed the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (LPS), which went into effect in 1969 and quickly became a national model. Among other things, it prohibited forced medication or extended hospital stays without a judicial hearing.

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.o...mental-illness

[JeffreyD]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

What about it? I was responding to the "blame Liberals" chant, which ignores the fact Conservatives are responsible for this, just as much - if not more.

GOP Arnold did something about it.



http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec...al/me-mental14

It has already been determined - a long time ago, that once pandora's box, is opened, it cannot be closed again.

This is fact,sir.

In 1967, Gov. Ronald Reagan signed the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (LPS), which went into effect in 1969 and quickly became a national model. Among other things, it prohibited forced medication or extended hospital stays without a judicial hearing.

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.o...mental-illness

Arnold has never been a conservative. But from your new link, it appears that Reagan did a good thing, yes? Sounds good to me!

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Arnold has never been a conservative. But from your new link, it appears that Reagan did a good thing, yes? Sounds good to me!

Then you're ok, with the homeless, living in the woods, near you and the OP?

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Sounds like California can thank it's neighbor at least in part.

Yes. Nevada put mental patients on buses and sent them out of state. But NV is getting sued for the cost of their care. NV deserves to be sued.

[JeffreyD]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Then you're ok, with the homeless, living in the woods, near you and the OP?

Sure, their free to live their lives the way they want, why would anyone object to that?

Their everywhere, let them live in peace!

[JeffreyD]

Originally Posted by Nevada

Yes. Nevada put mental patients on buses and sent them out of state. But NV is getting sued for the cost of their care. NV deserves to be sued.

Sounds like Mexico, can we sue them too!

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Sounds like Mexico, can we sue them too!

I have often thought we should.

The moving of mental patients was called, "Greyhound Therapy", and it has been done for a long time.

I think they are doing something similar with sex offenders.

[greg273]

How about 'free boat rides to Cuba' for anyone who wants to go? They did the same thing to us with their mental patients, lets return the favor.

[Oxankle]

LOL; Some of these comments remind me of a cartoon by Dixon Diaz in "Bloom County"

The joke goes: "How do you brainwash a liberal?"

The answer is "Give him an enema".

The very idea that we should turn the world over to demented and drug-crazed losers is ridiculous. We have a duty to protect and care for those who cannot care for themselves, but no duty to enable them to create harm. Bring back the poor farm. Those who do not like it and can do better for themselves, will.

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by Oxankle

LOL; Some of these comments remind me of a cartoon by Dixon Diaz in "Bloom County"

The joke goes: "How do you brainwash a liberal?"

The answer is "Give him an enema".

The very idea that we should turn the world over to demented and drug-crazed losers is ridiculous. We have a duty to protect and care for those who cannot care for themselves, but no duty to enable them to create harm. Bring back the poor farm. Those who do not like it and can do better for themselves, will.

They are not poor.

They are mentally ill, on drugs/booze or simply don't want to participate in "society", like the rest of us. maybe all three.

Either we lock them up, in a pri$on or mental in$titution, or we let them run free. Who decides?

Either way we pay.