The Biology of Envy

where I want to · #1 10/29/13, 01:13 PM

CBSnews post an article on schadenfreude, which is the term for taking pleasure in the pain of others.
Although many "studies" in the news are dubious at best, this one seemed to explain some things.

One of the things that were surprising to me is the intensity of the spitefullness when Obama won election. I had always kind of supposed that liberals were motivated by a sort of general good will toward humans- that they tended to think better of the human race than I did.
So when the common response on these forums to the apparent victory was not "now we can help more people" but instead "you lost, now deal with it", it surprised me a great deal.

But in the light of this study, it was clear that many people who seemed to believe that government should do more for them also get pleasure, pure biological pleasure, in taking away from those they see has having more- in otherwords envy. Benevolence is not the operating emotion for many but envy.

It might also explain something of the responses to other issues too. I guess it's one more addition to the thoughts expressed in the ten commandments.

Ozarks Tom · #2 10/29/13, 03:25 PM

Yes, the liberal mind is a terrible waste.

I've always felt there's an insecurity hiding behind the facade of moral superiority. Expressing empathy and concern for others is one thing, but assuming you can right society's wrongs through sweeping legislation is presumptuous beyond reason. Mandating changes in human nature, short of performing lobotomies, is a fool's errand.

Envy is just part of human nature. It's how you deal with the emotion that separates liberals from conservatives. Liberals tend to see a pie to be of a defined size, and for one person to have a large slice means someone else must have a small one. Conservatives believe the pie can be made bigger, and you can cut whatever size piece you earn.

There will always be those, some on this forum, who look at employers and other successful people as persecutors of their fellow man. The arrogance to presume higher moral standing based on unproven assumptions of someone else' motivation is typical of the insecure, and spiteful character.

Funny thing is, the liberals who read the above will to a person say "not me!".

Old Vet · #3 10/29/13, 03:30 PM

That is the plan to dived the country and envy is the means to that.

Oggie · #4 10/29/13, 04:14 PM

I find no joy in the irritation some folks might feel by this thread finding its way into general chat as opposed to the political forum.

My schadenfreude must be shot.

keenataz · #5 10/29/13, 04:44 PM

Funny thing is, the liberals who read the above will to a person say "not me!".

Well some of us are nice people you know? Especially Canadian liberals

where I want to · #6 10/29/13, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oggie

I find no joy in the irritation some folks might feel by this thread finding its way into general chat as opposed to the political forum.

My schadenfreude must be shot.

Maybe but I think it's possibly working overtime.............. Anyway it is not a political issue or not strictly a political issue. I used the liberal spitting after the election as an example but it applies many things. Especially those with an emotional response to a philosophical question.

It might explain the National Enquirer, or laughing over pratt falls, or interest in famous couple's divorces. It might even explain hating cats................

Tricky Grama · #7 10/30/13, 07:52 AM

How soon after the 1st election of the Idiotincharge did he say: "I WON!"?
Can you think of another POTUS who's been as arrogant?

where I want to · #8 10/30/13, 10:43 AM

I also wonder if this tendency is also the source of revenge. The idea that "getting even" will bring happiness when in truth it really doesn't seem to ever do that.
I too wish I had not brought up liberals in my OP- it was just meant as an example that has impressed itself on me since I started on this forum.

It applies equally to the other end of the political spectrum.

Oggie · #9 10/30/13, 12:42 PM

The way in which I understand schadenfreude pertains to misfortune that happens to others that is either self-inflicted or sort of a reverse serendipity, not as the result of an action of the person who later enjoys the other person's discomfort.

Say that I have a neighbor who owns a shiny new Ferrari and is pretty snooty about it. If he just washed the car and a bird pooped on it and he shook his fist and jumped up and down, I would enjoy that and I think that is schadenfreude.

If I, personally, throw dirt on it, that's not schadenfreude. It's something else.

The reason I think the example in the OP is not schadenfreude is that folks who want the rich to pay more taxes elect representatives who also have that as their goal. In other words, they are active (though somewhat removed) participants in causing the discomfort the wealthy might feel.

It's kind of a moot point, though, because the wealthy pay less tax as a percentage of their income now than they did when Reagan was president. So, it's kind of hard to relish the discomfort of the wealthy when it doesn't much exist.

where I want to · #10 10/30/13, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oggie

The way in which I understand schadenfreude pertains to misfortune that happens to others that is either self-inflicted or sort of a reverse serendipity, not as the result of an action of the person who later enjoys the other person's discomfort.

Say that I have a neighbor who owns a shiny new Ferrari and is pretty snooty about it. If he just washed the car and a bird pooped on it and he shook his fist and jumped up and down, I would enjoy that and I think that is schadenfreude.

If I, personally, throw dirt on it, that's not schadenfreude. It's something else.

The reason I think the example in the OP is not schadenfreude is that folks who want the rich to pay more taxes elect representatives who also have that as their goal. In other words, they are active (though somewhat removed) participants in causing the discomfort the wealthy might feel.

It's kind of a moot point, though, because the wealthy pay less tax as a percentage of their income now than they did when Reagan was president. So, it's kind of hard to relish the discomfort of the wealthy when it doesn't much exist.

If schadenfruede has a biological basis, then it is not an unreasonable leap to think that the same source of enjoyment fuels both schadenfreude and revenge or taxing others, no matter what the source of the "unfortunate" event. It comes down to taking pleasure in someone else's unhappiness.
And I won't address the unfortunate political bent of the last part of your post. Really I won't.

Oggie · #11 10/30/13, 03:08 PM

I'd have to graze through the actual study.

The point of the last part of my last post was that in order for there to be schadenfruede, there has to be some actual discomfort.

And, in the more acceptable popular uses, schadenfruede usually occurs when the misfortune has some level of comedy.

For example, I think that giggling about President Reagan not realizing a microphone is on and saying something the didn't really want broadcast is schadenfruede. Giggling about him being shot goes beyond that. Or, giggling about the hundreds of goofy things Vice President Biden says is schadenfruede. Giggling about the deaths of his family members is not.

Joel_BC · #12 10/30/13, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

I also wonder if this tendency is also the source of revenge. The idea that "getting even" will bring happiness when in truth it really doesn't seem to ever do that.
I too wish I had not brought up liberals in my OP- it was just meant as an example that has impressed itself on me since I started on this forum.

It applies equally to the other end of the political spectrum.

Yeah, a good point. Envy is envy.

My outside perspective (Canadian) is that I've known many kindhearted conservatives and liberals, and some of each who are narrow and vindictive.

Personally, I favor people who are self-responsible, focussed, and diligent - I don't like programs that wiill increase a "perpetual welfare class". I like regulations that reasonably protect the natural and human environments. I like innovative business. I like programs that give poor kids a chance to become good learners early in their years. I know that the concept of budgets for governments is a real thing. Am I conservative or liberal?

There was a man in the U.S. who I've read was a "folk hero" in the 1970s. His name was Karl Hess. You can read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hess
He was pretty unclassifiable. I've read a fair bit about him. He moved onto rural land in West Virginia and worked as a welder. Not only was he extremely intelligent, I'm convinced he was a very interesting sort of humanitarian.

where I want to · #13 10/31/13, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oggie

I'd have to graze through the actual study.

The point of the last part of my last post was that in order for there to be schadenfruede, there has to be some actual discomfort.

And, in the more acceptable popular uses, schadenfruede usually occurs when the misfortune has some level of comedy.

For example, I think that giggling about President Reagan not realizing a microphone is on and saying something the didn't really want broadcast is schadenfruede. Giggling about him being shot goes beyond that. Or, giggling about the hundreds of goofy things Vice President Biden says is schadenfruede. Giggling about the deaths of his family members is not.

Well I find being taxed uncomfortable so probably others do too.
The study, as mentioned in the article, did not make it clear about the nature of the smile. I suppose it was possible that subjects did not smile when someone they thought was pitiful (althougth the idea that being old makes you pitiful is offensive,) got zapped by fate but did smile at the rich person, might mean they held back out of past training about picking on the weak. There is a whole universe to think about there.
But if schadenfruede exists, I don't think the impluse is restricted by the level of the bad happening. Probably the expression is. But I know people who have been vocally happy over a real tragic happening. I can remember on man who popped out with the statement "we only got what we deserved" over the 9/11 deaths. He really was pleased at the justice he thought served, even though the people who died might have been totally innocent. That is schadenfruede on a spectacular level. I can also remember the news reports showing Muslims at various places celebrating those deaths too.
And I don't think laughing at a Biden faux pas is schadenfruede. It just funny. Being pleased that he did or when others make fun of him for it is.