Oct. 2013 Canadian Discussions, News, Issues, Etc.

[Paumon]

This thread is a continuation of the topics that were being discussed in the September 2013 Canada discussions sticky:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/general-chat/494662-sept-canadian-discussions-news-issues-etc-2.html

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I disagree with the political rhetoric and the message in that letter. To me it smacks of xenophobia and both religious and ethnic bigotry and racism and frankly I'm disappointed, astonished and even a bit disgusted that somebody who claims to be a Canadian would hold to such views and misconceptions about Canada's history. Honestly, it sounds to me more like it was written by somebody who was not born, raised and educated in Canada and doesn't know much about Canada's history and demographics.

There was three waves of immigrants to Canada starting more than 300 years ago - not in 1900. This link shows the history of immigration to Canada, as well as showing the immigrant statistics for Canada now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra...nada#History_2

While I disagree with face covering because I think it denies personhood I believe that the Charter of Values has an agenda that is more about racial and ethnic bigotry than it is about secularism or religious symbolism. If it was really about ostentatious religious symbols then why did they select only a small group of religious symbols worn by christians, jews, sikhs and muslims? There are more than 300 religious symbols that are important to people of ALL religions, over 130 of the most obvious ones are in the wiki list below.

So .... if this charter of values goes through on just this one small group then who and what will be added to the list next and where will the line be drawn? Will aboriginals who work in public service jobs no longer be allowed to wear feathers or obvious pendants that depict their spiritual totems? Will wiccans no longer be allowed to wear pentagrams or little earth goddesses? Will pagans and gaians no longer be allowed to wear the tree of life or the triskelion? How about buddhists and taoists with their little prayer wheels or yin-yang symbol, or spiritualists who wear their astrological symbols or ... oh, the horror .... jewellery with mystical, healing crystals and precious gemstones? The list goes on and on so where will the line be drawn?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stical_symbols

Now, as to immigrants coming into Canada - as of the 2011 census more than 85% of Canadians self-reported being European-Canadians or Canadians of European ancestry. Look at the ethnic demographic list below. I don't think anyone needs to worry about Canada getting overwhelmed by an influx of immigrants from the various Asias when in fact there are immigrants from all over the world coming into Canada. Nobody immigrating to Canada gets preference because of their ethnicity or place of origin. Everybody has to meet the criteria and everybody has to go on the waiting list. Everybody deserves the opportunity to become a Canadian. Canada is a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-religious country now 35 million strong as of last July, a country that was founded and populated by Aboriginals, Europeans, Africans and Asians of varying religions, educations and belief systems. Nothing of that has changed and everyone should still be welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra...ion_statistics

[Oak Leaf]

Thank you Paumon, I completely agree with everything you wrote.

I would also like to add that this isn't really about religion. The Charter of Values is a tool to create discord within Quebec, and between Quebec and the rest of Canada.

Marois would LOVE another referendum but knows the timing isn't right. She's using the Charter to build up the 'us vs them' mentality she needs to bring about favourable conditions. She's appealing to a certain segment of the old, white, French Catholic crowd. What she didn't count on was how many Separatists are NOT white/french/catholic and now they're upset with her.

[emdeengee]

Originally Posted by Elffriend

This isn't just about face covering. They want to disallow any head scarf, turban or kippah and any religious jewelry deemed ostentatious. Who gets to decide what is allowed and what isn't?

For issues of security I think identifying women who cover their faces can be done in a culturally sensitive manner by having the woman expose her face in private to a female official.

I know what the new law wants to do and I disagree with most of it. I don't care if you want to wear a 2 foot cross on a chain around your neck or a Hajib to cover your hair. As I stated in my previous post - covering the face is completely against our justice system which is based on identity. If you cannot identify the person then there is no charge. You cannot identify fabric that covers a face. Having someone expose their face to a private female officer does nothing in a legal case where identification is required.

As for the kirpan. It is a knife, a dagger and it is made of steel or iron and is generally 8 to 10 inches long. The argument is that it is a sacred article and would NEVER be used to threaten or harm anyone. Well unfortunately it was used to threaten and harm which is the case that brought it before the supreme court. If I cannot carry nail scissors or a Swiss Army knife on a plane then no one should be allowed to carry a kirpan. Just because you wear a Turban does not mean that you are a Sikh - it could be a disguise which allows you to freely board a plane or enter a building with a deadly weapon.

[emdeengee]

[QUOTE=Paumon;6760748]
Now, as to immigrants coming into Canada - as of the 2011 census more than 85% of Canadians self-reported being European-Canadians or Canadians of European ancestry. Look at the ethnic demographic list below. I don't think anyone needs to worry about Canada getting overwhelmed by an influx of immigrants from the various Asias when in fact there are immigrants from all over the world coming into Canada. Nobody immigrating to Canada gets preference because of their ethnicity or place of origin.

This is actually incorrect. Thousands of applicants from Hong Kong were granted permanent residency ahead of people who had been waiting for years. And Canada does have "buy your way into the country" immigration whereby if you have the money to invest in a business you not only get to apply through the federal business immigration program but through the provincial or territorial immigration programs in 9 provinces and territories.

[Paumon]

Originally Posted by emdeengee

As for the kirpan. It is a knife, a dagger and it is made of steel or iron and is generally 8 to 10 inches long.

I don't know if the charter of values has anything in it about the sikh kirpan. They have though singled out the jewish kippah, which is what Elffriend was referring to. These are kippahs:

[AngieM2]

continued on October stickied thread.

Oct. 2013 Canadian Discussions, News, Issues, Etc.

[Paumon]

Originally Posted by emdeengee

Thousands of applicants from Hong Kong were granted permanent residency ahead of people who had been waiting for years.

That was when Britain's 99 year Hong Kong lease expired in 1997 and it reverted back to China leaving thousands of Hong Kong born British subjects about to become homeless if they didn't become citizens of China. If that's what you're referring to then that was extenuating circumstances and Canada was not the only country that speeded through the applications for those Hong Kong immigrants. Countries all over the world including USA and all of the Commonwealth countries did the same thing to help get those people out of there.

[emdeengee]

People had years, decades to make their preparations to leave if they did not want to switch to rule by China and become Chinese citizens. It was hardly a surprise that the lease was expiring in 1997 and that Hong Kong would be returned to Chinese rule - everyone (China and Britain) agreed to this in 1985. They did not plan ahead and then they were able to jump the queue because they had money to invest.

[Paumon]

Sure, all of that is inarguable. The point is that was the reason it happened and it happened not only in Canada but in countries all around the world in the 3 years leading up to and during the first 6 months of 1997 before China reclaimed Hong Kong. Thousands upon thousands of people did immigrate then from Hong Kong to other countries but that was 16 years ago, not now.

[Paumon]

Originally Posted by AngieM2

continued on October stickied thread.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/spe...ssues-etc.html

That link opens up to this same page.

I think you meant to say continued from September stickied thread Sept. Canadian Discussions, News, Issues, Etc.

I have edited my post at the beginning of this page to include the link to the September discussions.

[Paumon]

Well, here's today's news.

Topless protest linked to values charter causes uproar in Quebec legislature

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/topless-protest-linked-to-values-charter-causes-uproar-in-quebec-legislature-1.1478865

QUEBEC -- A topless protest interrupted the daily question period in Quebec's national assembly Tuesday, in a screaming semi-nude denunciation of the controversial values charter.

Women began removing their clothes while Premier Pauline Marois was answering a question.

The premier had been asked about a payroll tax and had just uttered the words, "(We're) taking action now" when shouts erupted in the gallery and everyone's eyes, including the premier's, drifted upward..............

[emdeengee]

Originally Posted by Paumon

Sure, all of that is inarguable. The point is that was the reason it happened and it happened not only in Canada but in countries all around the world in the 3 years leading up to and during the first 6 months of 1997 before China reclaimed Hong Kong. Thousands upon thousands of people did immigrate then from Hong Kong to other countries but that was 16 years ago, not now.

Unfortunately this is not an exceptional or isolated case from 16 years ago. It happens all the time and not just from conflict areas such as Somalia and Bosnia. Our friend from Serbia waited 10 years for his immigration papers and arrived just before the conflict really got heated but others who applied afterwards were receiving permanent resident status (not refugee) within a year. His best friend was still on the old list so he did not get his status for 5 more years making the total wait time nearly 14 years.

And it is still going on today.

[housewife]

Originally Posted by emdeengee

Unfortunately this is not an exceptional or isolated case from 16 years ago. It happens all the time and not just from conflict areas such as Somalia and Bosnia. Our friend from Serbia waited 10 years for his immigration papers and arrived just before the conflict really got heated but others who applied afterwards were receiving permanent resident status (not refugee) within a year. His best friend was still on the old list so he did not get his status for 5 more years making the total wait time nearly 14 years.

And it is still going on today.

the Canadian immigration system along with many other government run systems is unbalanced and horrid. It's run by people and they make mistakes. It's not something you can change.

As for Quebec I think they made a HUGE miscalculation somewere and are now going to pay for it... just hope it dosen't end up with fighting across the board.

They want to be seperate well fine good bye. Build a fence. They will not get Queens land or reserve land large part of the provience. They will not get gov hand outs or use Canadian money. They can build their own military their own everything.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of all of Canada getting lumped in with Quebec. This charter thing is beyond stupid. In a country that is supose to have freedom it is a slap in the face. Reminds of how much is truely unchanged. Prejudices is still alive and very well in this country just not as obvious as it has been.

[emdeengee]

Originally Posted by housewife

the Canadian immigration system along with many other government run systems is unbalanced and horrid. It's run by people and they make mistakes. It's not something you can change.

As for Quebec I think they made a HUGE miscalculation somewere and are now going to pay for it... just hope it dosen't end up with fighting across the board.

They want to be seperate well fine good bye. Build a fence. They will not get Queens land or reserve land large part of the provience. They will not get gov hand outs or use Canadian money. They can build their own military their own everything.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of all of Canada getting lumped in with Quebec. This charter thing is beyond stupid. In a country that is supose to have freedom it is a slap in the face. Reminds of how much is truely unchanged. Prejudices is still alive and very well in this country just not as obvious as it has been.

Except that this is not a mistake. It is policy and changes made for political ends. People who follow the rules get side lined.

The Constitution (which includes the Charter) was repatriated in1982 through the Constitution act without the approval of Quebec. It was not actually needed but this has left a big hole that those who want to make political hay can use.

[housewife]

Quebec has been playing this game since the beginning. It just keeps going on and on. Gives Canada a black eye and then asks for more money more freedom more control of the country. Enough is enough. They have become the posin pill of Canada. The rest of the world see this tars the whole country with the same brush. Not realizing that it is a small part and your can be 4 days drive away and still be in Canada

I saw an interview with a family that relocated from Oka because of the hate and religous problems. They didnt figure they would get a better life with out leaving and though it could have been today it was the late 1800

[Fennick]

There's a couple of Canadian forums that I participate on where the proposed Charter of Values has been a very hot topic. Most of the Canadians on those boards are furious about it. Two families I know who have lived in Quebec for decades have decided they've had enough and are now planning to move out of Quebec.

They want to be seperate well fine good bye. Build a fence. They will not get Queens land or reserve land large part of the provience. They will not get gov hand outs or use Canadian money. They can build their own military their own everything.

For these reasons and more I don't believe Quebec will ever separate from the ROC --- that is if they give serious thought to the consequences. I'm curious about whether or not the wannabee separatists have taken into consideration all the First Nations in Quebec (who do not want to separate) and how much land in Quebec is First Nations land. How much Crown land there is that they've been thinking of as natural resources but they wouldn't have access to if they separate. They can't afford and wouldn't have the manpower to create or hire their own military. If they were to separate from Canada their territory (whatever is given to them) would become occupied by our southern neighbour's military for the national security of both USA and Canada. I don't believe they have considered the necessity of that and that such military occupancy by one country or another would be a certainty. Once they became occupied by another country's military they would no longer have the sovereignty that they already possess now as part of Canada.

[Oak Leaf]

Originally Posted by housewife

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of all of Canada getting lumped in with Quebec. This charter thing is beyond stupid. In a country that is supose to have freedom it is a slap in the face. Reminds of how much is truely unchanged. Prejudices is still alive and very well in this country just not as obvious as it has been.

And I'm tired of all Quebecers being lumped in with the Separatists.

[housewife]

Originally Posted by Oak Leaf

And I'm tired of all Quebecers being lumped in with the Separatists.

Sorry didn't mean to imply that everyone in Quebec was a separatists. I really so hate the "all" concept. Isn't there and island off the east coast we can send all the separatists.

The news stories I'm hearing of random acts of violance against any one of a different religion is worrying me. It only takes one nutbar to turn this from foolish political rangling to something that will go down in history with a shutter.

[housewife]

Originally Posted by emdeengee

Except that this is not a mistake. It is policy and changes made for political ends. People who follow the rules get side lined.

The Constitution (which includes the Charter) was repatriated in1982 through the Constitution act without the approval of Quebec. It was not actually needed but this has left a big hole that those who want to make political hay can use.

Yes but policy are set by people... Political ends are IMO selfserving to someone. That is the mistake I was refuring to. People follow their agenda narrowly, they don't look or think of anyone outside their "norm". You can't change human nature you can't make narrow minded little dictators grow into real people. There is always one in the barrel, sometimes more. Some of them even believe the "I'm from the Government, I'm here to help" punch line. Some time it hit the media and everyone is shocked that is could have happened... everyone says there will be changes... But really what changes, not much. And in the long run who is hurt by all this. Rarely is it them.

[emdeengee]

Originally Posted by housewife

Yes but policy are set by people... Political ends are IMO selfserving to someone. That is the mistake I was refuring to. People follow their agenda narrowly, they don't look or think of anyone outside their "norm". You can't change human nature you can't make narrow minded little dictators grow into real people. There is always one in the barrel, sometimes more. Some of them even believe the "I'm from the Government, I'm here to help" punch line. Some time it hit the media and everyone is shocked that is could have happened... everyone says there will be changes... But really what changes, not much. And in the long run who is hurt by all this. Rarely is it them.

It is still not a mistake. The policies are actually set but they are circumnavigated. This is deliberate. An ex-colleague of mine worked for immigration for 18 years and he was constantly given files to advance over all the files he had on his desk. This was against the mandate of his department but the director could do as he pleased and he often had to do as he was told.

I worked for the government and the military and most people work their butts off trying to help others. The few bad apples give every one a bad name. This is exactly the same in the private sector.