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12/28/11, 01:39 PM
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Excommunication and Salvation?
Just wondering what people believed regarding the state of a excommunicated persons salvation.
Seems there is some murkiness around the subject in the different denominations.
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12/28/11, 01:49 PM
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No charge for awesomeness
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Just because you are kicked out of the club doesn't mean you still aren't saved. I don't care what the pedophile supporting Pope says .... his laws --- ex cathedra --- doesn't trump Gods law and Gods word ..... Period !! You can be kicked out of the best churches and still remain a child of God and have your name firmly stuck in the book of life. You don't lose your salvation once saved .... If you are not saved .... you need to get that done. Don't know how ?? Then just ask !! Sitting in the front pew of the church every sunday, or being the cashier at the local church bazaar, or donating your clothes to the church charity drive are not the things that get you saved and get you to heaven. There are pews full of people in churches that are still going to hell.
God says to call on him to be saved, then change your ways and follow him (carry the cross). Any other laws made up by man are just a moot point. Neither the Whitehouse or Wall Street tells God what to do.
You want a roadmap on how to get to heaven ???? Start with John 3:16 and keep reading ... then do what the bible tells you to do.
Ohio Rusty ><>
Last edited by Ohio Rusty; 12/28/11 at 01:59 PM.
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12/28/11, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Rusty
Just because you are kicked out of the club doesn't mean you still aren't saved. I don't care what the pedophile supporting Pope says .... his laws --- ex cathedra --- doesn't trump Gods law and Gods word ..... Period !! You can be kicked out of the best churches and still remain a child of God and have your name firmly stuck in the book of life. You don't lose your salvation once saved .... If you are not saved .... you need to get that done. Don't know how ?? Then just ask !! Sitting in the front pew of the church every sunday, or being the cashier at the local church bazaar, or donating your clothes to the church charity drive are not the things that get you saved and get you to heaven. There are pews full of people in churches that are still going to hell.
God says to call on him to be saved, then change your ways and follow him (carry the cross). Any other laws made up by man are just a moot point. Neither the Whitehouse or Wall Street tells God what to do.
You want a roadmap on how to get to heaven ???? Start with John 3:16 and keep reading ... then do what the bible tells you to do.
Ohio Rusty ><>
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Right,just because people remove you from a church,denomination or whatever, does not mean you are kicked out of heaven as well.That is always left up to God, because he knows the condition of a persons heart.Man does not.They might like to think they do, but they don't.A lot of those accusers will miss Heaven to.Its all in the heart..just my 2 cents.
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12/28/11, 02:44 PM
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No charge for awesomeness
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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You are right Eddie Buck .... A church membership is not a 'get in free' card to heaven, nor will a membership or subscription to a holy magazine get you there either. Churches make it sound like you have to jump thru a bunch of hoops and be sponsored in order to get to heaven ..... baloney.
Get saved, get to heaven, and that get's it done. Getting saved is the third most thing Jesus talked about after hell and finances, so Jesus must have considered it pretty important to put that emphasis on it.
If anyone needs convincing of that .... I have every reference to being saved marked in my bible and I'd send you every verse number to read if you want it. If you are not born again (saved) there is doubt about you getting there. Don't shoot me .... I'm just the messenger ..... read it for yourself and you decide. God gave us all the choice.
Ohio Rusty ><>
There is no sound more lonely than a cold and quiet anvil .....
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12/28/11, 03:08 PM
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Salvation has nothing to do with religion or a church.
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12/28/11, 06:04 PM
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Location: Hochfeld Manitoba
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So nobody believes in the authority of the Church and ordination anymore?
No transfer of the authority to forgive sins from God the Father to Christ and from Christ to Apostles??
Matthew 28:18-19
New International Version (NIV)
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
John 20:21-23
New International Version (NIV)
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
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12/28/11, 06:11 PM
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Banned
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Location: British Columbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
Just wondering what people believed regarding the state of a excommunicated persons salvation.
Seems there is some murkiness around the subject in the different denominations.
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It's no different from when a person gets disowned by their family. Just because they're dead to their family doesn't mean that they're dead. In many cases being disowned may even be a salvation for the disowned person.
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12/28/11, 06:12 PM
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Bitter Clinger
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In the Catholic Church, excommunication is not dammation (sp change for the censorbot). It is cutting someone off from the Church and the Sacraments and is meant to encourage the excommunicated to repent. It's the highest sanction you can give a Church member. Only God can send someone to hell.
BTW, on the topic of 'being saved'....Catholics are not 'saved' in the sense that many fundementalist Christians define the word. You do not need to profess your belief in Jesus Christ, reciting some Bible verse, to be saved. Even Lucifer himself believes in Christ and the Bible and he is not saved.
Catholics are saved, though. We are saved every day through our faith and obedience to Jesus Christ, are granted salvation when we die and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and saved on Judgment Day. Saved, period. (and, no, we are not saved through 'good works' as many fundementalists try to claim)
I am not a theologian or Canon lawyer, so I may not have gotten it exactly right. This is just what I was taught on what the Church teaches.
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"Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."
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12/28/11, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralFemale
In the Catholic Church, excommunication is not dammation (sp change for the censorbot). It is cutting someone off from the Church and the Sacraments and is meant to encourage the excommunicated to repent. It's the highest sanction you can give a Church member. Only God can send someone to hell.
BTW, on the topic of 'being saved'....Catholics are not 'saved' in the sense that many fundementalist Christians define the word. You do not need to profess your belief in Jesus Christ, reciting some Bible verse, to be saved. Even Lucifer himself believes in Christ and the Bible and he is not saved.
Catholics are saved, though. We are saved every day through our faith and obedience to Jesus Christ, are granted salvation when we die and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and saved on Judgment Day. Saved, period. (and, no, we are not saved through 'good works' as many fundementalists try to claim)
I am not a theologian or Canon lawyer, so I may not have gotten it exactly right. This is just what I was taught on what the Church teaches.
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I thought Catholic doctrine held that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church with some exception made for some ethical persons completely ignorant of the Catholic church through no fault of their own?
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12/28/11, 06:39 PM
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Bitter Clinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
I thought Catholic doctrine held that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church with some exception made for some ethical persons completely ignorant of the Catholic church through no fault of their own?
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Without the Catholic Church, no salvation is possible -- that is not the same thing as saying that you need to be Catholic to have salvation.
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"Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."
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12/28/11, 06:42 PM
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Wonder what happened when the Two Popes Excommunicated each other in the early history of the church (true story BTW) 
No Man has ANY Spiritual Authority over me in any way, shape, or form.
If you will research early Christianity History, you will find that a LOT of the stuff going on in Modern Christianity was not preached/taught by Jesus THE Christ. It is not Doctrine, but traditions of men.
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12/28/11, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralFemale
Without the Catholic Church, no salvation is possible -- that is not the same thing as saying that you need to be Catholic to have salvation.
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Suffering a little cognitive dissonance here on this end. 
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12/28/11, 07:07 PM
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Bitter Clinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
Suffering a little cognitive dissonance here on this end. |
Yeah, it's difficult to explain...and the explanation would get my fire proof undies more than singed.
From the Catechism,
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation.
You are right in that those who through no fault of their own do not know the Church, more accurately Christ, will not be prevented from gaining entrance into heaven or salvation. It is more complicated than that for those that know Christ and know the Church but turn their backs on the Church -- though, I guess this could apply to non Catholics if you think about it.
First off, it's heresy to say that anyone other than God/Christ can send anyone to heaven or hell. The Church clearly teaches that.
Also, the Church is really big on being the first and one true Church, started by Christ, himself, when he told Peter that he would be the rock upon which He builds his Church. Without the Catholic Church, the world would not know of Christ and His teachings. So, if you are baptized in the faith of Christ or believe in Christ as the Son of God, etc, you are, basically, unwittingly, being a beneficiary of the Church and getting your salvation through the Church. (I know I am not phrasing this correctly -- I may not even be getting it entirely right, but that is the gist of it)
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"Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."
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12/28/11, 07:49 PM
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But in the Catholic tradition one needs to confess ones sins to an ordained priest who then has the power to absolve (or not) the penitent of their sin?
So in fact exactly what my OP states?
Would a unrepentant excommunicated member of the Catholic faith be considered "safe" after his death?
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12/28/11, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
Just wondering what people believed regarding the state of a excommunicated persons salvation.
Seems there is some murkiness around the subject in the different denominations.
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Salvation is not related to church membership. Excommunication is irrelevant when it comes to the sacrifice at Calvary. Who is any man to tell God who is saved and who isn't? Salvation is of grace that it might be by faith. Your standing in an earthly church where humans trample the blood of Christ underfoot by trying to call it useless in your case is just not relevant to salvation.
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12/28/11, 08:01 PM
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Bitter Clinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
But in the Catholic tradition one needs to confess ones sins to an ordained priest who then has the power to absolve (or not) the penitent of their sin?
So in fact exactly what my OP states?
Would a unrepentant excommunicated member of the Catholic faith be considered "safe" after his death?
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As a Catholic in good faith, I can quietly pray, repent and ask God's forgiveness in the pew before Communion and have it 'count' and be free to take Communion, so I don't think confessing to an actual priest is necessary. It's preferred, but not necessary. Besides, it goes back to non Catholics (or excommunicated Catholics) not having access to the Church yet not being denied salvation.
As for an unrepentent excommunicated Catholic...would that not be the same as any unrepentent Christian?
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"Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."
Last edited by FeralFemale; 12/28/11 at 08:05 PM.
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12/28/11, 08:07 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
So nobody believes in the authority of the Church and ordination anymore?
No transfer of the authority to forgive sins from God the Father to Christ and from Christ to Apostles??
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No, I don't believe that I need anyone to forgive my sins except the Lord. And nobody's opinion can get a person into heaven or keep them out. It is grace alone due to offering of God's Son.
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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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12/28/11, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralFemale
As a Catholic in good faith, I can quietly pray, repent and ask God's forgiveness in the pew before Communion and have it 'count' and be free to take Communion, so I don't think confessing to an actual priest is necessary. It's preferred, but not necessary. Besides, it goes back to non Catholics (or excommunicated Catholics) not having access to the Church yet not being denied salvation.
As for an unrepentent excommunicated Catholic...would that not be the same as any unrepentent Christian?
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Not to be snarky but there is still an ordained priest holding the cup who by the Church's authority dispenses the sacrament?
And the Protestant faith has as its founders exactly such unrepentant excommunicated Catholics.
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12/28/11, 08:13 PM
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Bitter Clinger
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postroad
So nobody believes in the authority of the Church and ordination anymore?
No transfer of the authority to forgive sins from God the Father to Christ and from Christ to Apostles??
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Yes, I believe in the Priests' being a representative of God on Earth and, in God's name, giving me absolution for my sins. However, because he is not God he is not necessary for such absolution nor can he, by himself, give me absolution. It is God that gives me absolution. Frankly, it just makes me feel better to get counsel from a priest.
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"Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."
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12/28/11, 08:15 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekasmom
No, I don't believe that I need anyone to forgive my sins except the Lord. And nobody's opinion can get a person into heaven or keep them out. It is grace alone due to offering of God's Son.
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There must be a different meaning to the texts I used in support?
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Last edited by postroad; 12/28/11 at 08:17 PM.
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