Dec 7, 1941 to Nov 9, 1989 what happened? Nov 9,1989 til now
What hasnt happened?
Ok in another thread this issue came up and it was suggested that I start another thread to reduce the thread drift over in the other thread. We all know how we never drift threads here in GC... So here it is... feel free to jump right in with whatever answers you might have to these two questions and how those answers might relate to our world today. Enjoy.
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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain
Well, I got the 7 Dec 1941 reference as being Pearl Harbor but what is the significance of Nov 9, 1989? Are you referring to the beginning of the end for many eastern bloc countries?
November 9, 1989 - the day that changed European history
In a press conference on Nov. 9, 1989 GDR central committee spokesman Guenter Schabowski unintentionally announced that citizens could travel to West Germany immediately. It was the beginning of the end for East Germany.
Guenter Schabowski's press conference on November 9, 1989 was a fairly dull affair for most of its duration, according to those present. But a question by an Italian journalist right at the end turned it into one of European history's most memorable events.
Schabowski was asked just before 7 p.m. about when a new law permitting GDR citizens more freedom of travel would go into effect. Schabowski famously told the journalist: "As far as I know, that goes into effect now, immediately."
Since television viewers in both East and West Germany were following the live press conference, his comments electrified East Germans and eventually led to a redrawing of the European map.
Immediately following the remark, GDR citizens rushed to the border separating East and West Berlin, wanting to visit the western part of the city. The GDR border guards were unaware of the press conference, and, taken aback by the crowds gathering in front of them, made repeated calls to their superiors asking for guidance. They successfully prevented citizens from crossing the border for three hours.
But later in the evening, the guards relented and opened the borders. People were able to cross freely from East to West for the first time since the wall was erected on August 21, 1961.
Toni Fisher's top 40 hit of July 1962 was titled West of the Wall, It reached #1 in Australia for 4 weeks (a big hit), but only #39 in the US ???
A song that shows how strongly music often has reflected the political events of the times.
Toni sang of the sadness of lovers separated by the Berlin Wall which divided Germany from 1961 to 1989.
West of the wall I'll wait for you
West of the wall our dreams can all come true
Though we're apart a little while
My heart will wait until we both can smile ...
In our hour of sadness
How clearly we can see
Tomorrow's gladness
Free, free, free, free ...
IMHO the Japanese likely made one of the biggest military mistakes in history by not landing troops on the island and taking over control of it. Their opposition would have been the local police force, a contingent of U.S. Marines and lots of Navy sailors with virtually no combate experence nor ready access to weapons. I suspect the U.S. military would have surrendered within 1-2 days.
Doing so effectively blocks ready access to the Western Pacific. Midway and Wake would have surely been taken. New Zealand and Australia may have declared themselves to be neutral country.
For itself the U.S. would have had to fight their way through Southeast Asia, including China to approach Japan. U.S. landings on any Japanese owned/occupied islands would have been extremely difficult due to having to start in the U.S. and travel great distances to land troops, along with the accompaning long supply lines and lack of in-theater ship repair sites.
Bear in mind Germany declared war on the U.S. one or two days later.
Well, I got the 7 Dec 1941 reference as being Pearl Harbor but what is the significance of Nov 9, 1989? Are you referring to the beginning of the end for many eastern bloc countries?
I'm slow tonight.
The significance of the first two dates is during that time period the US military grew to be the superpower of the world. We became the "worlds policeman" so to speak, during the cold war that followed WWII. Most of the western free world became dependent in a very large part upon our military for their defense. After the wall came down in 89, the cold war was essentially over. The two major military powers in the world had come to terms. Thats what I was referring to with the first question.... What hasnt happened since the wall came down? No country has invaded our country. (or any of our western allies for that matter)
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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain
IMHO the Japanese likely made one of the biggest military mistakes in history by not landing troops on the island and taking over control of it. Their opposition would have been the local police force, a contingent of U.S. Marines and lots of Navy sailors with virtually no combate experence nor ready access to weapons. I suspect the U.S. military would have surrendered within 1-2 days.
Doing so effectively blocks ready access to the Western Pacific. Midway and Wake would have surely been taken. New Zealand and Australia may have declared themselves to be neutral country.
For itself the U.S. would have had to fight their way through Southeast Asia, including China to approach Japan. U.S. landings on any Japanese owned/occupied islands would have been extremely difficult due to having to start in the U.S. and travel great distances to land troops, along with the accompaning long supply lines and lack of in-theater ship repair sites.
Bear in mind Germany declared war on the U.S. one or two days later.
A lot of mistakes happened during WWII... ours was in our failure to install a one world government when Japan surrendered at the end of the war while we were still the only country with the "big stick".
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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain
The significance of the first two dates is during that time period the US military grew to be the superpower of the world. We became the "worlds policeman" so to speak, during the cold war that followed WWII. Most of the western free world became dependent in a very large part upon our military for their defense. After the wall came down in 89, the cold war was essentially over. The two major military powers in the world had come to terms. Thats what I was referring to with the first question.... What hasnt happened since the wall came down? No country has invaded our country. (or any of our western allies for that matter)
Two good historical references.
As to the question posed............
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvonne's hubby
What hasnt happened since the wall came down? No country has invaded our country. (or any of our western allies for that matter)
This is true, but for some reason that hasn't stopped us from going into multiple countries and spending lots of taxpayer money and spilling lots of our children's blood on wars.
Oh, and one more thing has happened..................(see any thread or link you like on the nat'l debt)
IMHO the Japanese likely made one of the biggest military mistakes in history by not landing troops on the island and taking over control of it. Their opposition would have been the local police force, a contingent of U.S. Marines and lots of Navy sailors with virtually no combate experence nor ready access to weapons. I suspect the U.S. military would have surrendered within 1-2 days.
Doing so effectively blocks ready access to the Western Pacific. Midway and Wake would have surely been taken. New Zealand and Australia may have declared themselves to be neutral country.
For itself the U.S. would have had to fight their way through Southeast Asia, including China to approach Japan. U.S. landings on any Japanese owned/occupied islands would have been extremely difficult due to having to start in the U.S. and travel great distances to land troops, along with the accompaning long supply lines and lack of in-theater ship repair sites.
Bear in mind Germany declared war on the U.S. one or two days later.
Just a response to this particular post. The other option would have been for Japan to have invaded the Phillipines first. The US Fleet would have staged out of Pearl with just two CVs and the entire (or nearly so) battle fleet (the BBs). The result would have been most of not all the Pacific Fleet being sunk in the central Pacific and a much greater defeat for the USA than Pearl was.
I think it highly doubtful the highly inexperienced US fleet could have defeated the Japanese in full engagement at that time.
A lot of mistakes happened during WWII... ours was in our failure to install a one world government when Japan surrendered at the end of the war while we were still the only country with the "big stick".
Wasn't that what the UN is supposed to be?
I think our mistake was to not go ahead and move against our erstwhile ally, the USSR, after defeating Japan. Dividing the world up with the Russians set the stage for the next 45 years of "cold war."
And so. What has happened. From Dec 7, 1941 to Nov 9, 1989 the USA proved itself to be the economic powerhouse of the world. It used its economy to also be the dominant military power as well. We led a 'coalition of (so called) democracies' against the "Communist Menace," such as it was and is. During this time the military power of the U.S. was used, both sparingly and not but, overall, creating an 'umbrella' under which most of our allies partied down. Countries as diverse as Italy and Greece and Belgium (for example) all cut back on their militaries as they used the money that would have gone for defense for social programs and lightening the workload for their citizens.
On November 9, 1989 the Berlin wall came down and the cold-war effectively ended. This presumably brought peace to the world and many nations, including the USA, thought that all the money "lavished" on the military could/should now be lavished on the citizenry. The Gulf War came and went and another strategic error (not overthrowing saddam and creating another enemy in the region) by a US Gov't, this under G H W Bush, contributed to mightily to the growth of islamic terrorism in the world. Even while the US had proven itself the master of conventional war, unconventional war still defied us.
Since 11/9/89 the world has been sinking into a morass. The United States, in an attempt to be all things (good and true) to all people has, literally, beggared itself despite being the richest and most productive nation in the world. Its GDP being significantly greater then the next three countries, combined, and its workers being the most productive in the world. Per capita income higher than all those except for small, oil producing dictatorships.
Over the past decades legal immigration- a backbone of energy and creativity in the USA- has become more and difficult, while illegal immigration has become a cottage industry.
Hedonism has become the moral baseline and abortion has become a true industry unto itself. This alone has denied the nation millions of potentially productive and hard working new citizens. (Who knows how many geniuses have been left on the abortionists floor? Unable to contribute to society.) We have become a nation that prefers a cell phone, with all the trimmings, to a human being; and the licentiousness to do whatever we can get away with to the responsible freedom of true adulthood.
Businesses and individuals have been subjected to higher taxes, fees and regulatory costs by all levels of government. Our military has been weakened by idiotic "rules of engagement" to where they are sometimes not even allowed to shoot back, much less conduct offensive operations. The government has taken larger and larger chunks of money out of the nation and weakened its ability to invest and grow. It has become the center for the redistribution of wealth from those that create it to those that waste it on frivolities and/or simply choose not to participate in creation, just destruction.
While much of this downturn has been happening for a lot longer than since 11/9/89 I do see that as the date our "big" boogeyman enemy was defeated and everything was presumably going to become wonderful. We were better off during the cold war. The only change for the good has been the technology and that has made us a lot more vulnerable, too.
BTW- I have chosen, for my own good, to use the "ignore edit" option so I won't be seeing some otherwise expected responses to this posting. Adios amigos.
Justin Thyme: You could well be correct. I view our Midway sea victory as more of a fluke than a military success.
Also, both U.S. carriers based out of Pearl Harbor were at sea at the time.
Dispite the warning by Billy Mitchell, the U.S. Navy was still a 'battleship navy' run by 'battleship admirals'.
Add in some false assumptions. For example, the U.S. aerial torpedos could not be used in Pearl Harbor as, when dropped, they sank too far down before stablizing. Japanese solved that problem by adding on breakaway wooden fins to theirs.
The fall of the Berlin Wall changed my life. I was in the process of quitting work for the AF. With the wall down, I decided to stick it out to retirement options.
Oh, and one more thing has happened..................(see any thread or link you like on the nat'l debt)
Maybe it's just a coincidence...............????
Yep our social program spending has accelerated greatly during the same time period.. all those programs that were to have gotten the economy going during the 30s that didnt were NOT repealed after the war put the economy back on its feet. Instead they have been increased drastically, along with our national debt. Considering the our military spending totals about 1/4th of our spending overall, and social programs account for 2/3s of overall spending.... I dont think its any coincidence that our national debt has increased substantially during this time period. oddly enough.. the number of poor folks has also increased during this same era..... Hmmmm??
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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain
I think our mistake was to not go ahead and move against our erstwhile ally, the USSR, after defeating Japan. Dividing the world up with the Russians set the stage for the next 45 years of "cold war."
Yup, that was the idea... except we did not impose a no nukes rule back then. A grave error on our part. Now every tyrant running the little cesspools on the globe is developing them.
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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain
Some of the numbers can be a bit deceiving. For example, the Office of Management Personnel includes payment made to Civil Service retirees. More and more it is becoming a mix between Civil Service and Social Security, where the OMP budget should go down and SS payments go up.
I don't know if military retirements come under DoD or the VA.
Look at where the three largest areas of spending are.
Debt is how it is counted. The official National Debt is something like $14.5T, or some four times higher than annual federal spending. Once you include all unfunded liabilities, such as IOUs in military retirements, Civil Service retirements and Social Security (for various reasons) it is more like $50-55%.
Lip service is being paid to an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requiring a balance budget, with some exceptions, such as a declared war. Back in the days of Bill Clinton, it would have likely been effective. Now GWB spent money like the proverbial drunken sailer and Obama certainly better what he was able to do, and in about one-fourth the time.
