Person or property?

[primroselane]

"The question is, and this is what Barack Obama didn't want to answer -- is that human life a person under the Constitution and Barack Obama says no," Former Pennsylvania Senator Santorum said. "Well if that human life is not a person then I find it almost remarkable for a black man to say 'now we are going to decide who are people and who are not people.'"

Santorum went on to say, "For decades certain human beings were wrongly treated as property and denied liberty in America because they were not considered persons under the constitution," he said. "Today other human beings, the unborn of all races, are also wrongly treated as property and denied the right to life for the same reason; because they are not considered persons under the constitution. I am disappointed that President Obama, who rightfully fights for civil rights, refuses to recognize the civil rights of the unborn in this country."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...=moreheadlines

[Shygal]

But Obama isnt black, it must be so because I read it on Homesteading Today.

[megafatcat]

This is why the far left refuses to debate with logic and thought of what extending policies and laws into the future will entail. As a culture we have become long on feelings and short on thought.

If abortion is not murder and thus morally reprehensible, but just like having a tumor removed as some suggest....

Why should murdering a pregnant woman bring more punishment?
Why should a male pay child support if the mother will not get an abortion? If you refuse to get your broken arm set after a car accident you will have trouble getting lifetime disability from the insurance company.

If killing an animal is murder then what should the punishment be for a serial murderer cat who shows no remorse? Life in prison or a mental institution for diminished capacity?

If you force Joe to give his money to John because he needs it, at what point do you stop?

The far right also has some wacky ideas, but they are seldom presented to the public as sensible. Thank goodness.

[megafatcat]

Since Mr Obama embraced his black heritage I think it is safe to call him black, by US Census Bureau guidelines.

[lilmizlayla]

Women are smart enough to decide what is best for them at that moment. Obama has been very clear on the subject. He states that a woman can decide for herself. Making abortion illegal isnt going to stop women from doing what they feel they need to do. Keeping it legal is our right.

With so many men jumping ship when babies come..i am shocked that anyone would even suggest that women then BE FORCED to carry a child.

Thats simply absurd. Having an abortion is considered an abomination, but thousands of men are abandoning their responsibilities to their children..and that doesnt raise eyebrows?

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by lilmizlayla

Women are smart enough to decide what is best for them at that moment. Obama has been very clear on the subject. He states that a woman can decide for herself. Making abortion illegal isnt going to stop women from doing what they feel they need to do. Keeping it legal is our right.

With so many men jumping ship when babies come..i am shocked that anyone would even suggest that women then BE FORCED to carry a child.

Thats simply absurd. Having an abortion is considered an abomination, but thousands of men are abandoning their responsibilities to their children..and that doesnt raise eyebrows?

Yet a woman can force a man to support a child no matter if he wants it or not. I'm sure you have a huge problem recognizing double standards.

A woman can force a man to be a father, but a man cannot force a woman to be a mother.

[JanS]

Originally Posted by tinknal

A woman can force a man to be a father

True, but female-on-male rape doesn't happen very often.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by JanS

True, but female-on-male rape doesn't happen very often.

That is a red herring. I would bet that the number of rape-abortions is quite low. I also highly doubt that the pro-life side would gain any supporters if there were a rape exclusion in the agenda.

[lilmizlayla]

Originally Posted by tinknal

That is a red herring. I would bet that the number of rape-abortions is quite low. I also highly doubt that the pro-life side would gain any supporters if there were a rape exclusion in the agenda.

you are right. why should women be told what option is the best for them? besides that, women have been doing it for centuries. there are many ways to induce a miscarriage. so what is the real issue? Not enough government control over women? I think women have enough brains to figure it out themselves without any outside interference. That is essentially "obamas" stance on abortion. For which he is absolutely correct.

it certainly isn't about the baby... not as much as the right resents those who are on the government dole .

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by JanS

True, but female-on-male rape doesn't happen very often.

Generally speaking, rapists don't pay child support, either...

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Generally speaking, rapists don't pay child support, either...

Nope, but the victims do................ if they are male.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments...rthirtysix.htm

California has also rejected as a defense to child
support the fact that the father was a victim of statutory rape. Reasoning that the father and mother
had consensual sex, the court saw no reason to excuse the father from the consequences of his
actions. Statutory rape cannot be used as a financial shield. San Luis Obispo County v. Nathaniel
J., ___ Cal. App. 4th ___, 57 Cal. Rptr. 2d 843 (1996).

Editor's Note: Recent decisions from other states agree that the fact that the father was the victim of
statutory rape does not provide a defense to child support. S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 23 Fam. L.
Rep. (BNA) 1082 (Ala. Civ. App. Nov. 22, 1996); State ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer, 252 Kan. 646,
847 P.2d 1273 (1993); Jevning v. Chicos, 499 N.W.2d 515 (Minn. 1993); Mercer County v. Alf M.,
155 Misc. 2d 703, 589 N.Y.S.2d 288 (Fam. Ct. 1992). From: (http://www.divorcesource.com/researc...97feb39a.shtml)

[kirkmcquest]

Originally Posted by primroselane

"The question is, and this is what Barack Obama didn't want to answer -- is that human life a person under the Constitution and Barack Obama says no," Former Pennsylvania Senator Santorum said. "Well if that human life is not a person then I find it almost remarkable for a black man to say 'now we are going to decide who are people and who are not people.'"

Santorum went on to say, "For decades certain human beings were wrongly treated as property and denied liberty in America because they were not considered persons under the constitution," he said. "Today other human beings, the unborn of all races, are also wrongly treated as property and denied the right to life for the same reason; because they are not considered persons under the constitution. I am disappointed that President Obama, who rightfully fights for civil rights, refuses to recognize the civil rights of the unborn in this country."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...=moreheadlines

The whole argument is whether an UNBORN fetus can be considered a person with rights. Santorum needs to do his homework.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by tinknal

Nope, but the victims do................ if they are male.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments...rthirtysix.htm

California has also rejected as a defense to child
support the fact that the father was a victim of statutory rape. Reasoning that the father and mother
had consensual sex, the court saw no reason to excuse the father from the consequences of his
actions. Statutory rape cannot be used as a financial shield. San Luis Obispo County v. Nathaniel
J., ___ Cal. App. 4th ___, 57 Cal. Rptr. 2d 843 (1996).

Editor's Note: Recent decisions from other states agree that the fact that the father was the victim of
statutory rape does not provide a defense to child support. S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 23 Fam. L.
Rep. (BNA) 1082 (Ala. Civ. App. Nov. 22, 1996); State ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer, 252 Kan. 646,
847 P.2d 1273 (1993); Jevning v. Chicos, 499 N.W.2d 515 (Minn. 1993); Mercer County v. Alf M.,
155 Misc. 2d 703, 589 N.Y.S.2d 288 (Fam. Ct. 1992). From: (http://www.divorcesource.com/researc...97feb39a.shtml)

Talk about double standards...

The boy in question is not old or mature enough to give informed consent to sexual intercourse - hence the charge of statutory rape on the female, but he *is* old enough to be held accountable for the consequences of the decision that he was not old or mature enough to make?

Call me crazy, but it seems you really shouldn't have it both ways. Either the young man was old enough or he wasn't.

[JanS]

Originally Posted by tinknal

That is a red herring. I would bet that the number of rape-abortions is quite low. I also highly doubt that the pro-life side would gain any supporters if there were a rape exclusion in the agenda.

I wasn't referring to abortions due to rape, but to the fact that men do have choices about whether or not to become fathers. When they choose to have sex and when they choose whether or not to use birth control. Unless a man was raped, he made a choice.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by JanS

I wasn't referring to abortions due to rape, but to the fact that men do have choices about whether or not to become fathers. When they choose to have sex and when they choose whether or not to use birth control. Unless a man was raped, he made a choice.

Not to be nit picky, but unless a woman was raped, she also had the same choice.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Not to be nit picky, but unless a woman was raped, she also had the same choice.

This is the double standard at work. They always come back to it. The only way this could be intellectually honest is to say that women have no self control and are not responsible for their own actions. Of course if this was true they would not be competent to make their own decisions.

It is the conundrum that totally destroys their argument.

[rean]

Originally Posted by Shygal

But Obama isnt black, it must be so because I read it on Homesteading Today.

He's not black, he is mulatto.

[salmonslayer]

I wasn't referring to abortions due to rape, but to the fact that men do have choices about whether or not to become fathers. When they choose to have sex and when they choose whether or not to use birth control. Unless a man was raped, he made a choice.

That is the strangest logic I have ever heard.....I am thinking you typed that without thinking about what you were saying because it sure destroys your argument.

[JanS]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Not to be nit picky, but unless a woman was raped, she also had the same choice.

I never said she didn't have the same choice. Just refuting Tinknal's statement that a man can be forced to be a father.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by JanS

I never said she didn't have the same choice. Just refuting Tinknal's statement that a man can be forced to be a father.

In that case, then a woman (except in the case of rape) cannot be forced to be a mother.